Future of C-17 Production??
- Thread starter WannaGonnaC130
- Start date
ian
Well-Known Member
Just keeping my fingers crossed....
I agree, but you have to a little more than that there Hoss. Hell you don't even have wings yet! And you've only started Phase III! I'm only asking if you have a plan for that time in your career. IF you're allowed to Palace Chase, realize that you'll be about the.....say......a little less than 7 years remaining on your 10 yr UPT ADSC post-pilot training graduation. After first ops assignment, being that you're a heavy guy, you'll have some good hours, but likely very few (if any) AC time, and no IP or EP qual. Right out the box, you'll be a very low time, low experience, low qual prob senior CP or maybe junior AC who will be looking for a reserve/guard job somewhere. That job will be most-likely part-time, as you generally have to have been in the unit for a while, or very experienced to get a full time. Since Palace Chase is 2 for 1 vis-a-vis ADSC, you'll now owe just shy of 14 years to the guard/reserve, much of it as a part timer (though with heavy units, it's far easier to "trough"....ie- keep making $$ nearly full-time style by taking trips, just not having med/dental coverage paid for, etc.....but thats a tough life and with no guarantees). What will you do on the outside if you can't trough (since you shouldn't bank on that) and if you want to trough, you'd need to live near the unit you're with....what are your plans on the outside with very little quals and hours?
Just stuff you have to put thought towards.
I Palace Chased myself. But when I did it, I had 1 year remaining on my (then) 8 year UPT ADSC. So, I owed the guard/reserve 2 years, which has since expired. Which means (since I'm still in the Reserve) that I'm on MY terms now....nothing more owed to the AF. Plus, I left as an EP/SEFE with a good number of hours, quals and experience.....all AC time since I came from single-seat fighter.
These are all things you have to consider. You really have to pre-plan things prior to taking Palace Chase. It's a major change and can affect things big in your life if you don't set yourself up for success prior to doing it, especially if you have a spouse or family.
And ALL of this assumes you can even Palace Chase at all......if there's a shortage in 11Ms, your AFSC may not be allowed to leave active duty.
Just some 2 cents from some who's BTDT with that program and exit from AD.
bunk22
Well-Known Member
Hard to believe the AF would let guys go fly a learjet right out of flight training. I would think something operational then VIP flying. For the Navy, only FTS or SELRES get to fly the lear jets anyway. Either C-12's or C-26's would be the only choice after your first sea tour and either one is a bad career move (though it can be overcome with hard assignments after the fact).
Lears (C-21s) and C-12s [and back in my day, C-9s], aren't considered MWSs, or primary airframes. It's almost like a seasoning program to go to.....called OSA, or Operational Support Airlift. If you go to it out of UPT, you'll be issued a follow-on....ie- tanker, strat airlift, tac airlift, etc.
When I was graduating UPT, the T-1 guys would have to select the assignment they wanted off the overhead projector based on where they finished in their class.....ie- finish higher, you have more choices. For the guys that selected OSA assignments, those all came with a base as well as a follow-on which you had to take. Example: Guy number one stands up, looks at the projector list, and says "I'll take the C-141 to McChord". One of the C-141/McChord assignments are then crossed off the list (or the only one is if its the only one). The guys choosing OSA couldn't mix and match, the assignments came as-is.....so, if a guy wanted an OSA with a follow-on to Strategic Airlift (C-5/17/141), but the only one available with that combo was a C-21 to Maxwell (Strat), then thats what he had to take....since the others could be C-9 to Ramstein (Tac Airlift) or C-21 to Randolph (Tanker).
Anyhow, in one of the classes ahead of me, there were two reserve guys in T-1s. Even though they know where they're going already and what they're going to fly, they still stand up at graduation and say which plane at which base they'll take (that they were going to all along). So, during the T-1 side of the house doing assignment night....guy number one (active) stands up and takes a C-5 to Dover. Guy number 2 (Active) stands up and takes a C-141 to McGuire. Guy number 3 (active) stands up and takes a C-21/Peterson/Tanker follow-on. Guy number 4 (active) stands up and takes a C-9/Yokota/Tac Airlift follow-on. Guy number 5 (Reservist) stands up.....eyes the projector screen over...smiles....and states "I'll take the KC-10 with the Fedex follow-on!"
The glares of hate from the Generals in attendance was priceless!
ian
Well-Known Member
well there ya go...apparently i know nothing about the palace chase program haha....the guard guys in my class said i should look into it and so i started to but i had no idea it was that complex. if i stayed active i'd ideally like to end up at the 89th....so without the place chase i'd like to end up the 89th, then the TN C-5 Guard unit while doing FedEx....but thats a long time from now
Yeah, its indeed complex with many variables. Thats why I was surprised to hear you trying to do it post-first assignment. I mean, if you can do it great, but you'd have a TON of limitations at that time. The Guard guys (esp if they're Guard babies) don't know much about it other than that's how some active duty guys end up in their units.......they don't realize the fine details of the program. Remember, a Lt advising an Lt is generally the blind leading the blind.
The biggest hurdle on the AD side would be if you even could Palace Chase. I guarantee, unless there's a huge surplus of 11M AFSCs, that Personnel Center is going to look at your application and roll over laughing. The last time people were able to leave AD so early after UPT was in the mid-90s when people could graduate UPT and leave the AF with no committment, or graduate UPT as AD and go directly to a guard/reserve unit if they liked.
Ideally, if you want to go to the 89h, then going strat airlift would be best (vs going tanker, or tac airlift........don't know if you can still get a tac airlift in T-1 or if that's only the T-44 guys). Are you familiar with their minimums to apply? If not, get so, and work towards that goal during your first assignment. Attempt to avoid the UAV, since that'll just needlessly delay things.
ian
Well-Known Member
I've talked to one of my instructors that came from the 89th when i was at the academy and he didn't say the concrete mins just that i needed to have heavy time and know someone in the unit...is there somewhere on the portal or something where i can see concrete minimums required?
Here you go. 89th is TRULY the airlift "private club"......the "Thunderbirds" of the heavy community
, I suppose. But my point stands that you NEED to know this is where you want to try to go, and prepare for that (get the necessary hours/quals) starting with your first assignment. My comments are in green.Requirements:
1a. Minimum requirements are as follows: mimimums here, you definitely need more to be competitive
• Airlift, Tanker, or C2ISR (E-3, E-4, E-8, KC-135) Major Weapon System (MWS) Aircraft Commander
• No fighter LOL.....I still find that part funny, since they had to throw it in there
• 2000 total hours again, a minimum. need more to compete
• 3 years Time on Station (TOS or DEROS) by Feb 10 (NO EXCEPTIONS) the "10" is for this hiring cycle, but it changes. Basically, have 3 years retainability
• Professional Military Education (PME) completed (any method), appropriate for rank and time in grade they're big on this one
• MWS/OSA Instructor/Evaluator experience very important
1b. 89th Airlift Wing highly desires in addition to above requirements:
• 2500 total hours (not including other time) Again, the standard "other" time that fat plane drivers log for observer time, etc, doesn't count
• 250 MWS/OSA Instructor Pilot hours
• MWS/OSA Evaluator Pilot experience
• Recent worldwide flight experience
• Minimal number of qualification level 3 (or equivalent) flight evaluations Don't screw up your Form 8 checks, insure they're Q1s minimum...try not to even have a Q2
Other stuff:
. Prepare a package. Package must be in standard AF blue folder labeled with your last name and include the following:
• AF Form 3849
- Include a statement that you desire to fly for the 89 AW, basically, tell us why you want to be in the 89th (no need to specify which aircraft) This is kind of dumb....isn't it inherently obvious?? But then again, the Thunderchickens ask the same dumb question too
- INCLUDE YOUR CURRENT HOME/MAILING ADDRESS, PHONE NUMBER (Home & Work), WORK E-MAIL ADDRESS, NICKNAME (if any or preferred name), SQ/CC NAME, SQ/CC PHONE NUMBER (DSN & Comm)
- Statement of suitability and date of availability (month/year) from no higher than senior rater (include typed name of senior rater)
• Copy of AF Form 942 (Record of Evaluation)
• Must send accompanying Form 8(s) for any Q-3s Don't get any Q3s
• Copy of last 5 Officer Performance Reports (OPRs)
• Flight History Report (or equivalent form) summarizing all aircraft flown, total hrs, and MWS hrs breakdown
- Security Clearance Paperwork - Please complete the paperwork and make hard copies for the application.
- 316th Security Forces Form 12 (Financial release - Apr 04.doc) An important one......make sure your financials are in order, good credit, etc
- Commander’s Presidential Support Program Questionnaire – Please have your commander/supervisor complete these forms with your package.
bunk22
Well-Known Member
For the Navy, we put our selections in and somehow, they are made. I walked into Student Control all those years ago and under the glass top desk was the selection. Mostly based on the need of the service of course
No fan fare, no standing up in a group, just a piece of paper on a desk.
germb747
Well-Known Member
I really can't speak for the active duty or the other airframes, but at least for my unit, you'd have to try really hard to ever Q-3 a checkride. They're not UPT checkrides--they're very "big picture". In the last 100 evals we had in our pilot section, nobody has failed. I think I've only ever heard of one guy in our unit who busted his periodic instrument/qual checkride, and that's because he was grossly unprepared. I observed one other checkride where I was like, "there's no way in hell this guy passed", and he still wound up with a Q-2. (That guy was eventually RIFFED out, because he really wasn't a safe pilot; had washed out of UPT once, managed to get reinstated, and then never got to the point where the leadership even thought about upgrading him).
Weird. He actually washed out, then got back in? Thats unheard of. Or did he get an 89 ride and pass it?
germb747
Well-Known Member
No. Plenty of people go to 89 rides and pass them, but this guy was a reserve baby and somehow the unit got involved and he got another shot. Then, as the years went by, he simply didn't progress and was finally asked to find a new calling.