Fun times at Skywest

v1valarob said:
I'm "lucky" enough to have time in both the 145 and 200.

My first leg of IOE in the 145 we were filed for 370. At about 290 and .56M (our profile) I grew concerned. I asked the check airman "why isn't the red tape showing at the bottom of the air speed tape?" He responded "we aren't even close to the stall speed. You rarely see the stall red line in the climb."

After logging over 900 hours in the 200 I was shocked. After FL250 in the 200 you'd begin to really pucker up and pay attention.

The 145 will climb at .56 all the way to 37000' with no issue, and the. Accelerate to .74+ with no problem.
Click to expand...

Maybe on a ferry flight. If you climb in FLC at 270->.56 anything over about 41k you will be seeing 10 degrees pitch up with climb rates less than 500fpm once you get in to the high 20s. If you ever make it to altitude, it takes the thing half an hour to accelerate. It's a very, very foolish way to operate.

Airline flying is about minimizing exposure to risk. Flying a jet that slow at that altitude exposes your crew, passengers, and jet to an undeserved (and unnecessary) level of risk. In my humble eyes, FLC is dangerous above about FL270 on an average day. If you're on OT or are trying to over block, climb at .65 then cruise at LRC. Much safer.
 
roundout said:
Airline flying is about minimizing exposure to risk. Flying a jet that slow at that altitude exposes your crew, passengers, and jet to an undeserved (and unnecessary) level of risk. In my humble eyes, FLC is dangerous above about FL270 on an average day. If you're on OT or are trying to over block, climb at .65 then cruise at LRC. Much safer.
Click to expand...

How exactly is FLC dangerous? Set it for your company's profile speed and the airplane will never stall. NEVER. It may stop climbing, but that's it.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
It's a jet. Why the hell would people be flying it so slow anyway? We climbed at 290 kias in the -200s at Pinnacle. Never had any "pucker factor."
Click to expand...
I think much of it has to do with the push toward smart CI flying which will often have you fly much slower. Not a hazard in and of itself but it requires one to pay attention. If the ROC drops below about 500/min something probably needs to change or level off. At cruise one must also pay attention and if you let airspeed drop too much due to distractions the only option is to descend. Finally, there have been some incidents while climbing over weather at these speeds and hitting turbulence, then getting the shacker.
 
SrFnFly227 said:
How exactly is FLC dangerous? Set it for your company's profile speed and the airplane will never stall. NEVER. It may stop climbing, but that's it.
Click to expand...

Have you ever taken a jet at minimum climb airspeed until the altitude at which it simply stops climbing and levels off? What did you tell ATC? At our place we had a CRJ crew do just this and they ended up having to descend to gain enough energy to keep flying, and caused a loss of separation with, coincidentally, a company aircraft. The transcript and radar tapes from that incident are part of our distance learning for AQP now.

Say you're at .56 in the 30s. The PLI is showing and you're way below 200 knots. Hit a piece of bumpy air and you're in trouble. note that I'm talking about the E145, which was the subject of the post I quoted. At our shop, we have the discretion to operate between .56 and .65. If you climb at .56 the deck angle is uncomfortably high and the rate of climb is uncomfortably low. If you climb at .65, the airplane can do 1200-1400fpm all the way to 370 even after taking off at max weight. So with more wind over the wing the airplane climbs higher faster than at a slower speed, and with a far higher margin above stall. Why anyone would want to climb at .56 is beyond me. There's just no point.
 
Last edited:
roundout said:
The PLI is showing and you're way below 200 knots.
Click to expand...

Holy crap. Seriously, people, it's a jet. Flying at under 200 knots without leading edge devices out would scare the crap out of me.

I think I'll just keep avoiding buying any tickets that aren't on mainline Delta. No offense to the regional guys, but if your companies are pushing these procedures, they can do it without me in the back.
 
Blackhawk said:
I think much of it has to do with the push toward smart CI flying which will often have you fly much slower. Not a hazard in and of itself but it requires one to pay attention. If the ROC drops below about 500/min something probably needs to change or level off. At cruise one must also pay attention and if you let airspeed drop too much due to distractions the only option is to descend. Finally, there have been some incidents while climbing over weather at these speeds and hitting turbulence, then getting the shacker.
Click to expand...

When I flew the -200, per our FOM, we had to stop the climb and coordinate a new altitude is we couldn't climb more than 300fpm.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Holy crap. Seriously, people, it's a jet. Flying at under 200 knots without leading edge devices out would scare the crap out of me.

I think I'll just keep avoiding buying any tickets that aren't on mainline Delta. No offense to the regional guys, but if your companies are pushing these procedures, they can do it without me in the back.
Click to expand...
When I see the PLIs come up, I almost always put on an extra few knots. Hit a bump and it gets uncomfortable in a hurry. And this is with our "sooper efficient" EMB wing.

(I did "I forget but faster knots to an I forget but faster than .56 Mach" or something like that, never less than 200 KIAS, on the 145; the flight attendant yarding the cart up and down the aisle during an FLC climb was a frequent image in the back of my mind - never mind that "you might stall" thing.)

Even though the 7/9 are right proper airliners, there is just not enough thrust up there to accelerate to a safe turbulent air penetration speed when things go pear-shaped in a hurry and you're on the backside of the curve - and then off to the races.

If I upgrade to the CRJ-200, "we" won't be doing that on "our" airplane - not while I'm in command. Econ be damned if it commands something uncomfortably slow. I don't do it now on the 175 either. Ignoring the "you might get in serious aerodynamic trouble" argument, you are also gumming up the damn works coming into a hub descending at 271/.65.

(I remember what a Brasilia Captain told me once - "Let's be (expletive) pilots!")
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Holy crap. Seriously, people, it's a jet. Flying at under 200 knots without leading edge devices out would scare the crap out of me.

I think I'll just keep avoiding buying any tickets that aren't on mainline Delta. No offense to the regional guys, but if your companies are pushing these procedures, they can do it without me in the back.
Click to expand...

Pretty sure I just said that our book gives us a window up to .65. Most people fly at that or higher. I know everybody loves to beat up Envoy, but truthfully, most of our guidance is very solid. The people who don't see that (and we have our captains whose favorite phrase is "I remember when we didn't have that stupid procedure!!") are the people who don't have a firm understanding of the physics of operating a jet aircraft on the ground and in the air.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Holy crap. Seriously, people, it's a jet. Flying at under 200 knots without leading edge devices out would scare the crap out of me.

I think I'll just keep avoiding buying any tickets that aren't on mainline Delta. No offense to the regional guys, but if your companies are pushing these procedures, they can do it without me in the back.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure of the procedures at other airlines but I have never seen 200 KTS at mine.
Even if I did, as part of the training in this it is emphasized that you are still PIC. If the ACARS is telling you to do something you don't think is safe, don't be an idiot and blindly follow it.
Of course this assumes the PIC has retained some of the high altitude aerodynamics he/she was taught.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Holy crap. Seriously, people, it's a jet. Flying at under 200 knots without leading edge devices out would scare the crap out of me.

I think I'll just keep avoiding buying any tickets that aren't on mainline Delta. No offense to the regional guys, but if your companies are pushing these procedures, they can do it without me in the back.
Click to expand...
My guess is the airline climbing at .56 is TSA or maybe the remnants of the Chautauqua fleet.

XJT profiles are 290/.65 for the EP/LR and 290/.60 for the XR. Most people just use VS 1000FPS around FL300 to allow some buffer at the higher altitudes.

I have only flown with one CA that had no issues with flying below 200 knots in the 30s. Coincidentally he was also the most unprofessional CA I have ever flown with.

*approaching 200 knots*

Me: Hey your getting kinda slow
CA: The stall speed tape hasn't shown up yet.
Me: *face palm*
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Holy crap. Seriously, people, it's a jet. Flying at under 200 knots without leading edge devices out would scare the crap out of me.

I think I'll just keep avoiding buying any tickets that aren't on mainline Delta. No offense to the regional guys, but if your companies are pushing these procedures, they can do it without me in the back.
Click to expand...

You know better than that Todd.

While my shop has instituted a Cost Index climb, cruise, and descent performance system, the reality is that the decision to fly at whatever speed is still on the shoulders of the PF.

If a PIC, as PF or PM, is so poorly acting that they are not monitoring their own actions or those of their PF then perhaps this is the exact company policy that should be instituted since it would appear there has been a rash of high altitude low-speed events at the operator in question.

Much more to say, but that's the point. I do not know one single pilot at my company that is willing to flirt with the low-speed cue in any phase of flight.

Monitor your airplane folks.
 
Maurus said:
XJT profiles are 290/.65 for the EP/LR and 290/.60 for the XR. Most people just use VS 1000FPS around FL300 to allow some buffer at the higher altitudes.

I think I just found the XJT high altitude speed problem!
:)

I have only flown with one CA that had no issues with flying below 200 knots in the 30s. Coincidentally he was also the most unprofessional CA I have ever flown with.

I've only flown with one person in my career that thought that was ok, his rationalization was that " the DEECs wouldn't let the engines flame out, or compressor stall so it was ok" I was stunned at that!
*approaching 200 knots

[\QUOTE]
Click to expand...
 
Also remember that at some point you will change over to Mach verses IAS and may well see 200 knots safely. On a -200, however, I doubt you would get upbto those altitudes unless empty in the winter- if then.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Holy crap. Seriously, people, it's a jet. Flying at under 200 knots without leading edge devices out would scare the crap out of me.

I think I'll just keep avoiding buying any tickets that aren't on mainline Delta. No offense to the regional guys, but if your companies are pushing these procedures, they can do it without me in the back.
Click to expand...
I read somewhere mainline got a stick shaker a couple weeks ago on a base-final turn. Truth is the regionals actually have very smart and competent pilots.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top