FSI or ATP?

T56Maniac

T56Maniac

Member
Hello FSI folks,
I’m new to this jetcareers forum thang, so I will keep my questions short and to the point. For the past 8 months I have researched numerous flight schools that I would like to attend. Through process of elimination I have narrowed it down to 2, which are, FSI and ATP.

I have been in several forums trying to pick up dirt on both flight schools, only I couldn’t find any on FSI. I sifted through 5 years and still didn’t find anything that was concerning.

Question #1: Can any FSI folks out there enlighten me on factors at FSI that they would like to have changed, if only they could go back and do it over again?

ATP has its up’s and down’s just like any other flight school, but what I really like about ATP was the multi-engine time. The reputation wasn’t quite as strong as FSI, but good overall.

Question #2: Should I go be the motivated “learn yourself” individual at ATP and acquire 190HRS multi-engine time or should I be the motivated “learn from professional FSI pilots” on why their reputation is the best in the business?

Thanks,
 
Maybe this would have been better in the general forum where more would see it and maybe you would get more of an objective opinion. This is specifically the FSI forum. Why ask an FSI grad about ATP? It will not be objective. I would read the whole FSI thread to get a good overall feel.

I am reasearching where to go and in my opinion the best bang for the buck is Ari Ben. 200 hours of twin time all in an airlplane, where 50 hours of the twin at ATP is in a simulator.

Then you are guaranteed an istructor's job in those twins if you prove yourself with two students that they will give you when you graduate. From what I have read on the board, it is not a shoo in for the instructor's job at ATP, and then if you do get hired, it could be up to a year.

Ari is pretty much self study like ATP, and about $10K cheaper. $29,995 for everything excpet private. FSI is way too much.

But if I was choosing between FSI and ATP, ATP would win hands down from my research.
 
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The reputation wasn’t quite as strong as FSI, but good overall.

Question #2: Should I go be the motivated “learn yourself” individual at ATP and acquire 190HRS multi-engine time or should I be the motivated “learn from professional FSI pilots” on why their reputation is the best in the business?



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If your goal is to fly for the airlines, you can toss out the word "reputation". The airlines don't care where you come from, you were invited to interview because you have the hours ... whether it be the FBO route or Flight Safety.

The only arena where I could see reputation playing a big part is in the corporate arena where a lot of it is who you know.

For the most part though, and you'll find these sentiments all over this board, don't spend more money just to have "the name" on your resume.
 
Thanx fella's. I really appreciate your opinions, I will also post my questions in the General arena. Thanks for the direction.
 
Nobody can make this decision for you, but you should do yourself a favor and book a ticket to Florida. Come see FSI, Ari Ben, and ATP among others and you'll be able to make a more informed decision based on YOUR observations.

It's a good idea to get the opinions of students who have attended or are attending the school, but unfortunately on an internet forum you aren't going to necessarily get accurate or even true information. You're more likely to get "information" from people who have 0% experience with the schools that you are interested in.

That's not to say that you'll get 100% accurate information from a marketing department (although I think that FSI's marketing dept. was much more truthful to me than say uh Comair when I was looking). It's a tough decision to make. All you can do is try to take in as much information as you can handle and then try and make an informed decision.

I don't know much about ATP other than they do things very quickly. Personally, for how I learn (and how I see my students learn) I think that it's too quick. You want to make sure that when everything is over and done with that you are able to retain a good percentage of what has been presented to you. The airlines utilize the "drinking from a firehose" method, but they assume that you have a good basis to work from. I just can't imagine that the same approach would work well for initial flight training. Maybe it's just me...

Good luck with your decision.

Dave
 
Maniac,
When you choose a flight school you should be concerned with only one thing.....quality of training. When I shopped schools, I made my list of questions, toured most of the big ones, and asked the STUDENTS what they thought of the school not the administrative salaried folks.

I wanted to become the safest and most proficient pilot I could. I chose Flight Safety because of their reputation in the industry with respect to quality, proficiency, and safety.

WindChill is partially correct.....Your "total time" may get your resume "looked" at....BUT when it comes down to selecting one out of four resumes in front of the Pilot Recruiter, they do look at the training and educational background (True statement according to the PR at ASA).

Pavelump is also correct....Tour at least two schools with your list of questions and make sure you are educated on what to ask the students and staff.

IMO....Flight Safety would be your best choice. ATP has come a long way with their program but still can't touch the quality of FSA, Riddle etc. As for Ari-Ben.....well, good luck BrianNC. The planes have issues, the program is not all that well put together and at the end of the day I will bet that you come darn close to paying as much or more than a student who finishes on time and on budget at FSA. On top of that, you will not get half of what FSA offers.

Just my opinion....Take it for what it is worth. Remember, it is the quality of training that you should be concerned about...It could save your life someday..

Good luck...ILS
 
"When you choose a flight school you should be concerned with only one thing.....quality of training."

Disagree. You should choose a school based on a balance of quality and cost. Honestly, the FAA sets the standard and if you meet that standard, you're good enough. I think some schools make a lot of money off of trying to convince you to do a lot stuff that's not needed and then try to tell you that it's necessary to get hired. My experience has been simply that it's all about ratings, flight time, and who you know, to get you the interview. If you get through the interview, then you need to get through training. Your desire and motivation is much more important in that regard than what school you went to.

I'm convinced that FSI is a good school. It's also very expensive (probably the most expensive) and would not be my choice, nor have my recommendation, because of that.
 
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Disagree. You should choose a school based on a balance of quality and cost. Honestly, the FAA sets the standard and if you meet that standard, you're good enough.

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I will agree that the FAA does set the standards, and that some schools do sell things that a pilot doesn't need.....On the other hand, I'm in training at a regional right now and I'm sure glad that I was able to experience some of the un-necessary stuff...It's making life a lot easier right now.....total time may get you a job, but just like the mastercard commercials.....feeling comfortable in training is priceless, it lets you get better at what you're supposed to do much easier than if you've never been exposed to it before.....I doubt many flight schools outside the academies or the colleges go into the subjects of CRM or high performance/jet systems very much....Sure you can get through without that knowledge, and many people have. But things become much easier with a solid foundation of knowledge.....FSI's program allows that type of base. ATP, while being cheaper, may not allow enough time to let the information sink in. Ari-Ben is a flight school, and can get you ratings, but you may not be able to get the knowledge that will let you make it throught training at an airline easier. The one thing about this profession since the beginning of it all is that the pilots have always had pride in what they do. Lately, people have wanted to just "get the ratings" and get to an airline without trying to do the best they can. There are many ways to get into a career as a pilot, but if a person has put forth the effort to gain as much knowledge as they can before they get to an airline, it not only becomes easier for them when they get there, but it also brings back the pride and image that a pilot should have.......

off my soapbox, launchpad out
 
"feeling comfortable in training is priceless"

Not if you spent 20K on an RJ transition course, or some other silly thing. I think the price is high but if you want to pay it so you can feel more comfortable in training, knock yourself out. Again, airline training is designed to get everyone through. You pay attention, work hard, and have a good attitude, you'll be fine...or maybe you shouldn't be there.

"Sure you can get through without that knowledge, and many people have"

You can add me to the list. CRM wasn't a buzzword when I started flying. It's common sense, though, and not something you really need to take a class for. Jet transition sim programs? Waste of money. You wanna spend 20K so you don't feel quite so intimidated the first time you step into one, go for it.

The sad part of where all this is going is if the regionals start expecting guys to have all this advance knowlege that they paid tens of thousands of dollars for, what do you think is going to happen to the airline training programs? They will cut out sims and ground school time to save money in the training budget and pass those costs on to you. What does that do for a the pride and image of the professional pilot?

In short, the airlines should be bearing these costs and providing the advanced training that some people are falling over themselves to take out big loans for.
 
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the FAA sets the standard and if you meet that standard, you're good enough.

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Strongly disagree....I obtained my private pilot license at an "OK" FBO school before going to Flight Safety and yes I passed the written and flight test the first time and received my license. I will be the first to admit that I was not good enough to safely fly people around. Yes I was a good stick BUT....there was too much I didn't learn, yet the FAA said I was "good enough". When I got to FSA I did a few flights with a senior instructor and he recommended I go through there private ground school (free of charge) before stepping into their CIME program. BEST DECISION I EVER MADE. I have many friends that have had the same experience and are strong enough to admit that even though the FAA gave them a license to kill people, they simply weren't ready.

Lets all take a moment of silence and think of all of the people every year that kill themselves and their passengers in GA aircraft due to "pilot error". The FAA said they were ready too.
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BTW....I am not talking about jet transition courses, intro to glass, and programs of that nature (although FSA has some sweet ones if you have the funds and desire). I am talking about your "foundation". At the end of the CIME/CFI/CFII/MEI program, the determining factor on where you will go in your career and whether or not you may kill yourself and others someday is...... IF you have "good" safe flying habits or "bad" unsafe flying habits. The bad ones are VERY hard to undo. Just because the FAA gave you the license, it doesn't mean you are safe. Ask Iceman...He said Maveric was unsafe...


I stand firm with my statement that the quality of training is most important. Flight Safety gave me the BEST and most thorough training I could have asked for and I am a very safe and proficient pilot today because of what they taught me and the quality of their program. I get compliments from everyone that flies with me......

ILS
 
The standard you would like to see GA meet is unreasonable and would kill the industry as we now know it. It must blow your mind that the new sport pilot rule allows recreational flying in small aircraft with only 20 hours total time.

The FAA sets the standard and if you meet that standard, you're good enough. It's really no different than ASA (I think you fly for ASA), and the FAA, setting their standards at the minimum point they perceive as safe when they train RJ pilots. If you meet that standard, you're good enough. That level of good enoughness is a license to learn, whether you are a new PPL or an RJ pilot.

My view of FSI, which has been confirmed with this thread, is that it's at the upper extreme in cost with an overly heavy emphsis on ground classes learning stuff you could read in a book. Some people like it that way, which is fine. Some people are serious over achievers when it comes to ground school and book knowledge. That's fine and FSI is great if that's you. In my opinion, and from my experience, it's just not necessary.

"I get compliments from everyone that flies with me......"

Uh...okay....
 
Quality of training, bang for the buck and time taken should be some of the top things to look for...

Quality of training = you get out of the program what you put in.

Bang for the buck = Not all of us can afford $90K to get a few ratings..

Time = taking YEARS to get ratings that you could get in MONTH'S is a foolish decision if you wish to make this a career.

I just flew with a guy who went to Riddle to pick up his 4 year degree and did most of his flying elsewhere..Got his MEI/CFII with me last week.

I had to chose between FS and ATP.. I went the ATP route.. One thing I learned a TON from was the actual XC's with me and my flight partner - two guys in a Seminole flying cross country.. Making the decisions, flying at the altitudes we want - it was all up to us.. 75 hours of this is worth a ton of expirence - I think that was the biggest plus out of the ATP program, not to mention the amount of time which I was finished in..

I have seen good pilots come from ATP, FS, Riddle, Delta Academy, Ari-Ben, Skymates, etc.. I've seen really pathetic pilots come from ATP, FS, Riddle, Delta Academy, Ari-Ben, Skymates, etc..

Your flight training is what you make it.. If you want to do "just what it takes to get passed" you will do "just what it takes to get passed" at ATP, FS, Riddle, Delta Academy, Ari-Ben, Skymates, etc.. If you want to bust your balls, have the FAR/AIM memorized you can do that at ATP, FS, Riddle, Delta Academy, Ari-Ben, Skymates, etc..

The accelerated program at ATP isn't for everyone, but I have only heard of a handful of washouts..
 
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I have seen good pilots come from ATP, FS, Riddle, Delta Academy, Ari-Ben, Skymates, etc.. I've seen really pathetic pilots come from ATP, FS, Riddle, Delta Academy, Ari-Ben, Skymates, etc..

Your flight training is what you make it.. If you want to do "just what it takes to get passed" you will do "just what it takes to get passed" at ATP, FS, Riddle, Delta Academy, Ari-Ben, Skymates, etc.. If you want to bust your balls, have the FAR/AIM memorized you can do that at ATP, FS, Riddle, Delta Academy, Ari-Ben, Skymates, etc..

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I have zero complaints about FSA.

I now wish I hadn't gone so far into debt to pay for it, but that is hindsite & post 9/11industry point of view speaking.

I had a really great instructor for most of my training including a terrific guy for CFI ground. However my instructor for CFI left a LOT to be desired.

90% of quality of training comes directly from the CFI.




BTW, does anybody know how to track down a CFI from FSA? I'm courious what some people are doing now.
 
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BTW, does anybody know how to track down a CFI from FSA? I'm courious what some people are doing now.

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Maybe post his/her name or pm people...it's a small world....someone will know where they are...
 
Most CFI's who left FSA have a job flying regionals or corporate. 3 out of the 5 instructors I personally flew with are flying RJs now. (Other two are still instructing at FSA)

Back to the ATP vs. FSI debate. I had rounded down to those two as well but at the time ATP didn't have a pre-private program. Plus FSA is the only school that I know of that does upset recovery training (aerobatics of sorts), and GAT trainer. I thought both were worthwhile and the upset recovery training gave me a lot more confidence in my flying abilities. Although ATP does give you 3hrs in the Citation, which to me is just a fast 182, cool but I don't know how much it helps you other than bragging rights. I'm glad I went to FSA and the only thing I would have changed is to had been doing my instrument training in January when there was a lot of non convective instrument conditions going on.
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Hey...another question for you FSA folks,
On average, for those individuals that had no PPL before they started at FSA, what was the final cost for the FSA training (beginning-end)...including living expenses, etc. Did FSA quote the price right?
Thanks,
 
My 0hrs to CIME price was like $46k so I was only like $700-800 over the quoted price, and yes I did have to repeat one lesson and I landed at non approved fueling airports a few times. Which means any price above $2.50gal is yours to pay. Dunno if it's gone up since then, I know I paid $3.50 gal to fill up the seminole at Jax intl once.

The whole time there I spent like $88k, (0hrs to CFII) but that includes buying a car, car repairs and fuel, buying a bunch of DVDs, airline tickets and other non study related stuff. I'll just say that the price they quote is very relealistic and is obtainable if you don't goof off too much and have to repeat lessons etc. Plus I didn't fly for about a month durring the hurricanes, so there went like $1000 bucks or so, but I did get like 5hrs of free flight time flying evac flights.

My advice is to stay in the dorms and not buy a car, everything is walking distance and you can find someone with a car to goto the store with. If I had done that I would have spent a lot less.
 
I actually made it considerably under the quoted price. I think I saved about $2,000 - $3000 by never having to repeat any lessons and by coming prepared to my briefs. As far as living expenses go, that's up to you. I shared a place off campus with somebody and we each paid $300/month.
 
I was well under the $45,000 I had to give. Didn't have to repeat any lessons and I was always prepared for every flight. This saved me some money on ground time. All together I think I spent around $60,000 for training, food, dorms (25 Dollars a night) and pleasure. I was in West Palm Beach almost every weekend, needed to get out of Vero Beach..
Evolution and Riverside were not for me, so me and 2 friends from Europe bought a car to use. Split it so it wasnt that expensive.
 
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