Frustration

[Roger, Roger]

So here's the scenario-

I got a really good commercial multiengine (initial commercial) student this semester. Based on some things I learned last semester, we started working on the knowledge for the oral exam early. We hit systems hard, we hit multiengine aerodynamics hard, we hit VFR cross country operations hard. This guy did a great job on the flying and we got all the maneuvers satisfactory. I sent him for his final stage check (141) today (before his actual ride with the DPE). Long story short, they didn't even fly. Apparently the check instructor ripped into him on...IFR preflight planning and knowledge. From reading, there were a few things that he should have known no matter what, but an instrument oral on a commercial multi ride? Seriously?

I'm going to be having a conversation with my immediate supervisor (mentor) as well as the student and check instructor tomorrow, but I'm pretty daggum frustrated right now. Let's just say flight instructing is not feeling like my thing right now. I thought I'd learned and moved ahead from 4 students in this same syllabus last semester, but it feels like I'm just taking steps backward. I'm very seriously looking at getting out to turn wrenches because I'm so tired of dealing with Flite Skool BS.

Anyone else been there lately? Got advice?

 

[poser765]

Hmm seems kind of fishy. Not any inst stuff in the PTS that I know of. I would say you have fair grounds for being upset.

I had a guy recently bust a II oral. He told me what questions he was asked and the answers he gave. Got busted for the answers and his were probably better than mine would have been. I was fairly livid.

 

[tgrayson]

tired of dealing with Flite Skool BS.

That's why I hate 141. It's like jogging with your shoe laces tied together.

The only solution is to do your own thing by distancing yourself as much as possible from the politics. At the very least, that means only Part 61 training.

 

[Roger, Roger]

That's why I hate 141. It's like jogging with your shoe laces tied together.

The only solution is to do your own thing by distancing yourself as much as possible from the politics. At the very least, that means only Part 61 training.

Yeah. Unfortunately at my Skool O' Flite they have reined in even the part 61 stuff to the point where it works just about like part 141. Some days showing up feels like the Flite Skool equivalent of the movie Office Space.

 

[tgrayson]

part 61 stuff to the point where it works just about like part 141.

That was my suspicion. Personally, I don't blame them, but that wouldn't meet my needs, just like it doesn't meet yours. I've been fortunate to work for rather unorganized flight schools who really weren't capable of monitoring the part-time CFI's.

You have a weak negotiating position if your flight school is the only game in town. If they're not, you might start shopping around for different opportunities.

(Note, though, if your ambition is the Part 121 world, you're going to have to get used to this sort of environment.)

 

[MikeD]

So here's the scenario-

I sent him for his final stage check (141) today (before his actual ride with the DPE). Long story short, they didn't even fly. Apparently the check instructor ripped into him on...IFR preflight planning and knowledge. From reading, there were a few things that he should have known no matter what, but an instrument oral on a commercial multi ride? Seriously?

I'm going to be having a conversation with my immediate supervisor (mentor) as well as the student and check instructor tomorrow, but I'm pretty daggum frustrated right now.

Got advice?

Wannabe freight dog, huh.....

Know how a freight dog would handle it?

That check instructor has to walk to his car in the lot at some point......

....make it so he knows he better run to his car, daily; until he unscrews himself and resolves this correctly.

 

[Maurus]

Depending on your check instructors 141 can be good or bad. My school has a good instructor for stage checks. He is fair, but at the same time he will cover a lot in the stage.

 

[Roger, Roger]

Depending on your check instructors 141 can be good or bad. My school has a good instructor for stage checks. He is fair, but at the same time he will cover a lot in the stage.

Ours are inconsistent and unpredictable. That's a large part of what's driving me up the wall.

 

[Blip16]

So here's the scenario-

I got a really good commercial multiengine (initial commercial) student this semester. Based on some things I learned last semester, we started working on the knowledge for the oral exam early. We hit systems hard, we hit multiengine aerodynamics hard, we hit VFR cross country operations hard. This guy did a great job on the flying and we got all the maneuvers satisfactory. I sent him for his final stage check (141) today (before his actual ride with the DPE). Long story short, they didn't even fly. Apparently the check instructor ripped into him on...IFR preflight planning and knowledge. From reading, there were a few things that he should have known no matter what, but an instrument oral on a commercial multi ride? Seriously?

I'm going to be having a conversation with my immediate supervisor (mentor) as well as the student and check instructor tomorrow, but I'm pretty daggum frustrated right now. Let's just say flight instructing is not feeling like my thing right now. I thought I'd learned and moved ahead from 4 students in this same syllabus last semester, but it feels like I'm just taking steps backward. I'm very seriously looking at getting out to turn wrenches because I'm so tired of dealing with Flite Skool BS.

Anyone else been there lately? Got advice?

well, your student would need to do some instrument procedures on their checkride to not have a AMEL w/ VFR priveledges only

SO

Instrument seems valid to me.

 

[Roger, Roger]

It's not so much having IFR on there that I disagree with. It is the seemingly random inconsistency on our checks. One student gets a basic VFR airspace overview with some systems, commercial privs and limitations, and ME aerodynamics...and someone else gets a full-blown instrument ride. You can say all you want about the commercial pilot needing to be ready for anything, but the fact of the matter is that as a commercial pilot you will have a general idea of what type of operations you will be doing on a specific gig. For example, I bet the 121 drivers on here don't remember much about VFR airspace minimums, and if they got asked that stuff on a checkride they'd cry foul, even though most of their opspecs allow VFR operations.

Same deal on a checkride in training. If they want us to make it a full VFR/IFR ride, they're going to have to let us know that that's what they're ALL testing and give us the resources (i.e. more than one semester and 20 hours of flying) to prep someone for an initial commercial, initial multiengine, VFR+IFR ride. And stop wondering why people don't make it through in a timely fashion [/rant].

 

[jrh]

I'm very seriously looking at getting out to turn wrenches because I'm so tired of dealing with Flite Skool BS.

Anyone else been there lately? Got advice?

Unfortunately at my Skool O' Flite they have reined in even the part 61 stuff to the point where it works just about like part 141. Some days showing up feels like the Flite Skool equivalent of the movie Office Space.

Here's my advice:

This has nothing to do with Part 61 versus 141 training. I've only worked in Part 61 operations (three total, plus work as an independent CFI), but I've seen some great things and some really irritating things come out of them. There can be vastly different levels of quality in Part 61 schools. I can't imagine why Part 141 would be any different.

This has nothing to do with piloting versus turning wrenches either. You'll find annoying BS at maintenance shops, too.

This has everything to do with management and the "culture" of the school.

The best thing you can do is exactly what you're doing--meeting with the parties involved, communicating your thoughts to them, and hoping something will change.

Be professional, have objective, solid reasons for any complaints, be ready to prove why your teaching was adequate, and that's all a guy can ask for. Don't beat yourself up for doing your job correctly. And if you did make a mistake, no big deal, learn from it and move on.

Just don't write off flying or teaching because of a bad experience at one place. It's a big world with a lot of options out there in the same area you're already in.

 

[Roger, Roger]

The best thing you can do is exactly what you're doing--meeting with the parties involved, communicating your thoughts to them, and hoping something will change.

Be professional, have objective, solid reasons for any complaints, be ready to prove why your teaching was adequate, and that's all a guy can ask for. Don't beat yourself up for doing your job correctly. And if you did make a mistake, no big deal, learn from it and move on.

Thanks for the input. I'm just worn out from dealing with students and fellow instructors and feel like I need a break. Maybe a lot of it comes from working 10+ hours a day 6 days a week and not seeing the kind of progress out of my students that I want to. Add to that the lousy job outlook in the near future and it's real easy to lose sight of the big picture.

As for me making mistakes, it's pretty clear I made a mistake in this case, not adequately reviewing IFR preflight planning with my student. The frustrating thing is, I KNOW I'm miles better than I was just last semester in teaching the same course. But because of one area (IFR preflight planning on the CMEL check) that had never been an issue before with my students, I ended up with poorer results than last semester. Like I said, it feels like one step forward and two steps back. I get better and more thorough, but the results get worse.

Also, venting on the interwebs will make it a lot easier to go in there tomorrow and be professional while figuring out exactly what went down.

 

[Blip16]

It's not so much having IFR on there that I disagree with. It is the seemingly random inconsistency on our checks. One student gets a basic VFR airspace overview with some systems, commercial privs and limitations, and ME aerodynamics...and someone else gets a full-blown instrument ride. You can say all you want about the commercial pilot needing to be ready for anything, but the fact of the matter is that as a commercial pilot you will have a general idea of what type of operations you will be doing on a specific gig. For example, I bet the 121 drivers on here don't remember much about VFR airspace minimums, and if they got asked that stuff on a checkride they'd cry foul, even though most of their opspecs allow VFR operations.

Same deal on a checkride in training. If they want us to make it a full VFR/IFR ride, they're going to have to let us know that that's what they're ALL testing and give us the resources (i.e. more than one semester and 20 hours of flying) to prep someone for an initial commercial, initial multiengine, VFR+IFR ride. And stop wondering why people don't make it through in a timely fashion [/rant].

that is how it is here. there are things that are required and about 10 optional tasks for the end of course stage check. could be anything. but it is a full VFR+IFR ride w/ examining authority.

it doesn't matter who does the checks, could be 2 completely different DPE's they will both focus on different material.

 

[big_news_1]

A quick thought about the "inconsistency" of stage checks:

I firmly believe that a few select Check Airmen, DPEs, and Examiners have an uncommon ability to "read" a person within the first 5-15 minutes of an oral. Everyone does this to some extent, but a few people are really, really good at it. These folks can generally determine after a handful of questions whether or not an applicant knows the subject matter or not.

I've met two specific DPEs who I initially thought were inconsistent with their oral exams. However, after repeated exposure to multiple checkrides administered by these gentlemen, I came to the conclusion they had an unusually high degree of discernment when conducting orals. For those students who were undeniably learned in the subject matter, there was less "poking" and "prodding". However, for the students who were less studious, every chink in the armor was exploited by the DPE. It was as if these gentlemen could tell which students were genuinely good and which were fundamentally lacking just by looking them in the eye.

I don't know if this could be the case with your inconsistent Check Airman, but I wanted to put it out there.

 

[tgrayson]

As for me making mistakes, it's pretty clear I made a mistake in this case, not adequately reviewing IFR preflight planning with my student.

Just because a ME candidate has to perform instrument approaches doesn't mean this is an Instrument rating. You don't even need to be a -II to give someone a ME rating. There was no reason to provide the IFR preflight planning and such is beyond the scope of the training you're supposed to provide to a Commercial candidate.

 

[tgrayson]

I firmly believe that a few select Check Airmen, DPEs, and Examiners have an uncommon ability to "read" a person within the first 5-15 minutes of an oral.

This tends to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Once the examiner forms his judgment, he looks for evidence his judgment is correct. And he will always find it, so it reinforces his belief in his own judgment. Everyone does this to some degree, and most people have a great deal of faith in their ability to read people, regardless of whether there's any basis in fact.

But I use this to my own advantage. I emphasize to students that if they can make that first 15 minutes go really, really well, it creates a "halo effect" that will extend to the rest of the checkride.

 

[ufgators]

I can certainly see why you are frustrated in this situation. IFR preflight planning isn't even in the Commercial PTS! Having said that....


Your student is an instrument rated pilot right? In my opinion he should be able to answer some questions on IFR. If I know I'm going on a checkride with an examiner who is notoriously inconsistent I study everything that the FAA thinks I should know because there is no telling what an examiner that thinks hes God's Gift to Aviation will ask. But such is life and we still have to deal with them for several hours until the ride is over.

I wouldn't call this "two steps back for you" since this was a "special" case. Just take it as a learning experience and move on. I myself have had examiners who were just like this guy and now I make sure to at least brush up on things that I may have forgotten from other ratings.

 

[Blackhawk]

This tends to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Once the examiner forms his judgment, he looks for evidence his judgment is correct. And he will always find it, so it reinforces his belief in his own judgment. Everyone does this to some degree, and most people have a great deal of faith in their ability to read people, regardless of whether there's any basis in fact.

But I use this to my own advantage. I emphasize to students that if they can make that first 15 minutes go really, really well, it creates a "halo effect" that will extend to the rest of the checkride.

This is key.
I don't know what was asked, or if it was in/out of the areas of section I of the PTS. Some of these areas are also instrument flight items. However I do make sure my students are organized for check rides.
For example, they have a file folder with several items. Item #1 is their 8710 hard copy (even if we use IACRA). Their logbook is tabbed with each item required for the check ride. Item #2 is a copy of their medical and pilot certificate. Item #3 is their pre-flight data card. This takes care of W&B, performance and limitations, maintenance, and with a few minutes of quizzing the examiner can see that the student knows about these items.
Item #4 is each weather item listed in the PTS. For the commercial these items are: METAR, TAF, FA, surface analysis chart, radar summary chart, winds/temps aloft chart, significant weather prog charts, convective outlook chart, AWOS, ASOS, ATIS reports. Item #5 is their cross country planning log, sectional, airport diagrams.
This organization sets the tone for the check ride and takes away many of the "oral" items. If the applicant is asked something, they normally already know it since they get these items for every flight.

 

[shdw]

Wannabe freight dog, huh.....

Know how a freight dog would handle it?

That check instructor has to walk to his car in the lot at some point......

....make it so he knows he better run to his car, daily; until he unscrews himself and resolves this correctly.

I vote this! Nothing wrong with a little intimidation.

On another note, I feel your pain except I was as a student having to have crap like this done. One of the reasons I failed my private pilot stage check the first time is because I couldn't describe equivalent airspeed, hell I didn't even know it existed till that day. Then I got attacked for not correcting for the 1 or 2 degree compass errors on my planning.

Anyways it is a pain and their philosophy in my experience for stage checks is anything you have learned they can ask you. So your instrument guy better know all his instrument stuff since he is going for a commercial rating with an instrument certificate so how can you legitimately give him that additional sign off if he doesn't have basic instrument knowledge?

I see their side of it, but man is it a pain.

 

[mshunter]

So here's the scenario-

I got a really good commercial multiengine (initial commercial) student this semester. Based on some things I learned last semester, we started working on the knowledge for the oral exam early. We hit systems hard, we hit multiengine aerodynamics hard, we hit VFR cross country operations hard. This guy did a great job on the flying and we got all the maneuvers satisfactory. I sent him for his final stage check (141) today (before his actual ride with the DPE). Long story short, they didn't even fly. Apparently the check instructor ripped into him on...IFR preflight planning and knowledge. From reading, there were a few things that he should have known no matter what, but an instrument oral on a commercial multi ride? Seriously?

I'm going to be having a conversation with my immediate supervisor (mentor) as well as the student and check instructor tomorrow, but I'm pretty daggum frustrated right now. Let's just say flight instructing is not feeling like my thing right now. I thought I'd learned and moved ahead from 4 students in this same syllabus last semester, but it feels like I'm just taking steps backward. I'm very seriously looking at getting out to turn wrenches because I'm so tired of dealing with Flite Skool BS.

Anyone else been there lately? Got advice?

I used to work at a 141 school (AF), and this was the reason why I left. No consistancy. The TCO/141 route is a sales gimmick. Haveing done both 141 and 61, I find it eaiser to train under 61. You can find what a student is good at and what they are weak at, and focus attention where they are weak. It also makes it extreamly hard when you do the team teaching approach, and the previous instructor is just there to build hours, and give you no frame of refrence to leave off from. And, AND, you wast time in the cockpit because you are constantly trying to evaluate where the student is at in his learning.

My opnion, 141 is a waste of paper/money/skills. Find yourself a good 61 school and make the jump.