Frustrated Commercial Student

how much time do you spend studying at home for the maneuvers? chair flying and such.

I had a student that refused to spend any time studying at home and didn't progress beyond a point of mediocrity. After throwing out lots of money he started studying more and walla, he was done in a few hours.

If you are studying frequently then I would recommend stepping up the frequency of your lessons.
 
Folks I am another frustrated commerical student who is having problems doing Lazy8 and chandelles up to PTS. I had thought about discussing these problems but was little shy to ask bro jrocke66 had courage to post them.

The problem I am having with chandelle and lazy8 is as I enter the manuevers I start out right but half way before reaching the max pitch up the maneuvers start to break up airplane starts to return to to level flight airspeed not reaching the stall speed. It does not matter if I start the maneuver left or right I have noticed airplane acts diffrent when turning left or right.

I know I am doing some thing wrong here because my instructor has demonstrated this maneuver from the right seat he does it perfectly ok. I fly 172RG I start the maneuver at VA , one instructor I flew with told me to add power immediatly when you bank the airplane when doing a chandelle other instructor said no there is no need to add power and do this entire maneuver at VA. Some one have sujjested to me to switch to Piper Arrow as Pipers are more smooth to fly and I would do the maneuvers correctly in Piper aircraft.

I know it is difficult for viewers and for the pilots instructors to figure out just by reading this post that at which piont of the maneuvers I am doing
wrong . I have read the books and the topics about these commerical maneuver but still unable to do the maneuvers. I have about 25 hours in RG doing these maneuvers.

Now when doing chandelle do I have to add power abruptly pitch up and keep the full rudder in and in lazy8 when max nose down portion the airplane speed start the exceed before I reach the max pitch down.

Any feedback would be a help I am sure some one must had a student who was making such mistakes during these commerical maneuvers.
 
SillyPilot said:
Now when doing chandelle do I have to add power abruptly pitch up and keep the full rudder in and in lazy8 when max nose down portion the airplane speed start the exceed before I reach the max pitch down.
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I think you left some words out of this paragraph; I don't quite get what you're saying.

However, any sentence that contains the word "abruptly" is probably incorrect. :) Never, ever, do any maneuver abruptly. As a passenger, I don't want to feel any g-forces. Your job is to maneuver the airplane in such a sneaky fashion that I'm not aware that you're doing anything in particular. Make everything look easy, incredibly easy.

As for the chandelle, if you're in an airplane with a CS prop, you can leave the power at a cruise setting as you enter the maneuver. Check out Airplane Flying Handbook....it says so.

As you cross your reference line, smoothly roll into a 30 degree bank. Smoothly. Then smoothly (smoothly) start raising the nose. The nose should reach its highest point at the completion of a 90 degree turn. Keep it there! Smoothly begin your roll out. Err on the side of rolling out too slowly....it's easier to increase your rate of rollout at the very end to compensate for any judgment errors. As your airspeed continues to decay (even though your pitch attitude is the same), you will need increased back pressure to maintain the same pitch attitude. Only during this last rollout will you need close to full rudder. Hold the attitude there briefly and then lower the nose back to cruise.

By the way, do everything very, very smoothly.
 
tgrayson said:
As for the chandelle, if you're in an airplane with a CS prop, you can leave the power at a cruise setting as you enter the maneuver. Check out Airplane Flying Handbook....it says so.
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Yes, it does. However, in the spirit of trying not to get into an argument with any instructor or examiner, you should read the book. That is the essence of the problem. You should know exactly what the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook says about all these Commercial Maneuvers. Instructors and examiners are notorius about 'doing it their way' which is how they learned it.

The book says, "power MAY be left at cruise". May is the operative word. You are better trained to do them at climb or max power depending on the airplane. Your instructor will guide you, but you will better prepared to do them either way on a checkride.

Again, I would emphasize knowing exactly how these commercial maneuvers are described in the AFH. That is how they are measured on any checkride. Not what someone on-line says.
 
jrocket66 said:
I would like to thank everyone for their response. This website is a tremendous resource.

I fly a Cessna 172RG for my commercial training. I'm currently struggling on my short field landings. Lazy 8's and Chandelles were difficult until I finally understood the role of the rudder. I have flown with other instructors and all agree that I just need a little more polishing. I have practiced the maneuvers on my own but the majority of my time is dual. Often times, I struggle with a previously mastered maneuver or concept during a phase check review. It's just frustrating to hear the national average for the commercial is 25 hours when you are way past it. Thanks to everyone. The feedback is really helpful.
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When doing a shortfield and you want to hit your point perfectly, what I usually do is pick an airspeed just above stall and fly that airspeed down to a point about 50' - 100' before my point, begin a gradual flare, and let the airspeed bleed off, increasing my pitch to hold it off. You use your power to control where you're going to hit, and your pitch for airspeed. There gets to be a point where you're holding the plane in the air solely by use of power, when you pull the power to idle at two feet off the runway, you'll sink and touch down at the minimum possible speed. Works good.

As with chandelles and lazy eights, the trick for those is the same as for any other maneuver, aviate navigate, communicate. What I mean by that is primarily be concerned with maintaining smooth consistent coordination, and flying the airplane, be concerned with the actual mechanics of the maneuver first. This is back to basics, things like "climbing left turn requires right rudder" should be on your mind first. Also, these are visual maneuvers. Do them with your head outside. Cover up all your instruments accept your airspeed and fly it until you have it golden. Same with your steep turns, slow flight stalls, do it OUTside. You'll get it, the commercial is the easiest, its all about being smooth, coordinated, and professional. Don't yank and bank. Be calm, cool, collected, and if you fly it like the confidently like a billy badass you'll do great,.
 
for short field what I do is, I keep very little power (like 5/10%) and about 20 feet infront of my mark, i just cut the power.... plane just puts itself down. sometimes they aren't the smoothest of my landings, but I put it exactly where I want it.

now my problem atm is lazy 8s.. i hate that man. also not too good with 8s on pylons, but i'm working on that...

oh and power off 180s... I can put it on the runway fine, but I can't put exactly where I want it. kinda annoying
 
ppragman said:
Also, these are visual maneuvers. Do them with your head outside. Cover up all your instruments accept your airspeed and fly it until you have it golden. Same with your steep turns, slow flight stalls, do it OUTside.
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100% right... anytime I do these manuevers looking JUST outside, I do them PERFECT. I start concentrating on the inside (like on lazy 8s... trying to get that 12 degrees of pitch and 30 degrees of bank) it just goes to ####.

just gotta look outside

how are your chandelles and steep spirals man? those I don't have much problem with. altough I do go up and down in speed with the steep spirals sometimes.
 
SillyPilot said:
one instructor I flew with told me to add power immediatly when you bank the airplane when doing a chandelle other instructor said no there is no need to add power and do this entire maneuver at VA.
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chandelle is a max perf manuever, do you it full power.

do you know the history behind a chandelle? It is actually a WWI manuever.
 
taseal said:
chandelle is a max perf manuever, do you it full power.

do you know the history behind a chandelle? It is actually a WWI manuever.
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This is the problem many people have with the Commercial Manuevers, and I hinted at it in a previous post: Everyone does them a different way!

The PTS says nothing about full power for a Chandelle. It says "recommended entry configuration, power, and airspeed." No where in the AFH does it say that you need to add full power, it says that you may add full power and for constant speed props, it says you may leave it at cruise.

My advice:

For Chandelles, Lazy 8's and 8's on pylons, just know the PTS. Know what it requires. Remember, they are VERY subjective. Get some confidence, keep it coordinated and FLY THE AIRPLANE. More than likely, your examiner will show you how HE/SHE wants to see it, and have you do it their way. As stated by someone before, look outside and use visual references.

For Short Field Landings, get it SLOW. It will drop like a rock at 55-60KIAS, which is fine for a Cutlass. Trim it up. It is OK to be a little high, and then drop it in, because of the simulated 50 ft. obstacle. Also, try extending your downwind a little longer. This will give you more time to adjust your rate of descent and airspeed.

For Power Off 180's, this is really just about practice. Try to eliminate as many variables as possible. What this means, is always have the same power setting, altitude, and airspeed before cutting the engine, and always cut it in the same spot. This way, you will be able to adjust for things that are out of you rcontrol, like density altitude and wind.

For Steep Turns, USE TRIM. You can fly this manuever in a Cutlass handsfree if you trim it properly. Roll into the bank, put about 2 rolls of nose up trim, and make small adjustments.
 
taseal said:
how are your chandelles and steep spirals man? those I don't have much problem with. altough I do go up and down in speed with the steep spirals sometimes.
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chandelle =
max power
roll into a left 30 degree bank
start pitching

chandelles are about a climbing 180 with the maximum performance by putting the airspeed right above stall on the other side of the turn. In all practicality, its irrelevant for getting yourself out of a canyon or something, so realize what the federales see it as, a controll of the airplane maneuver.


steep spiral =
power to idle
roll into sixty degree bank
trim for Vglide
three rotations, and you're out.

steep sprirals are first and foremost about flying the airspeed and gliding down in a way similar to going down through a hole in the clouds or a failed engine approach to a point and you're way the hell up there.
 
I never became that consistent with my commercial maneuvers either until I started teaching them to students. Try having your instructor fly them a few times while you observe and critique him/her. You will start to pick up on the mistakes that your instructor makes and learn not to make them yourself.
 
I also used the Cutlass for my commercial training and had about 38 hours logged in it when I did the check ride. A little over 15 of those hours were solo practice and that flight time was spread over a period of 9 months due to a little funding problem.:rolleyes: What Ppragman said concerning the use of pitch and power on your approach is the key to making it work. If you're not controlling your airspeed with elevator and glidepath with power you're going to be working a lot harder than you need to.
 
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