Frontier

Enough Spirit stuff - back to Frontier. The super general bottom line:

Those planning to vote YES are doing so to increase their compensation as soon as possible. There is a fear that the gains of a TA2 wouldn't be realized for years.

Those planning to vote NO are doing so out of concern of weak language in the TA. There is too much "at the Company's discretion" and too much that still has to be negotiated. PBS is life and there is nothing but an LOA stating that the company will negotiate in good faith, and then upon no agreement, it goes to arbitration.

Does Indigo/Frontier negotiate in good faith? No. How has arbitration gone for F9 in the past? Bad. How quickly all that is forgotten when a substantial (but still industry bottom) pay raise is waved in front of one's nose...

Plus they cancelled our damn vacations purely out of spite and that language couldn't have been cleaned up to prevent that from happening again? C'mon.

For a group that voted 100% in favor of a strike two years ago, I'm not seeing a whole lot of courage or confidence now.
 
Box hauler said:
Are you a line holder? I get reserve being worse but I personally have had zero QOL impact after the contract. I'm interested to know how yours has been seemingly destroyed. Did you previously checkerboard your reserve?
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Wish I was a line holder, upgraded two years ago and can't hold one (unless its Christmas and everyone bids down). Never checker boarded but my wife works for a different airline so most months I would drop a day or two from one block and a day or two from another so I wasn't on for 6, pbs is my nightmare I won't be able to drop anything. @Cruise don't worry I probably would have voted yes for this if reserve's hadn't taken it up the tailpipe so bad.
 
Cruise said:
I believe it's a Time Value Money equation. Could you get more after another year or two of negotiating? Maybe, maybe not. Will that "extra" you "might" be able to get in that time overcome the deficit you created by turning down the significant gains now. Maybe...but most likely no.

And yes, the NMB's opinion in this matters significantly. Significantly!
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I don't disagree, I'm planning on voting yes. Like I said though, I am curious what made our NC reassess their position.
 
Cruise said:
You're spot on, @Nark. Of course there are areas in this CBA that can be improved in the next round of negotiations. However, we made massive gains in many, many areas. It's unfortunate that a few areas went slightly backwards (basically reserve rules and some schedule integrity stuff) to move forward as a whole. However, when you look at CBA'18 with a wholistic approach, it's undeniably a massive improvement from CBA'10 (reminder: one which was signed following a strike). It's called negotiations for a reason; not demands and receive. For us to make the gains we did in a single contract cycle were quite impressive. The NMB, yes their opinion matters significantly, said this is it, take it or leave it but they were done as far as we were concerned. So sorry we couldn't impress everyone, but then some simply refuse to see the larger picture (this isn't a shot @Eagle421flyer, the reserve guys definitely saw a reduction in QOL).
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I'd probably be a yes voter but we have just given up way too much in terms of work rules (phone contact, vacation, reassignment, reserve rules, and PBS) Never give up work rules is the cardinal rule I've always believed in. And even if we accept the notion that Spirit and we are in a lower class the pattern of our bargaining is a downward slope in terms of compensation (when all years and positions of the pay scale are considered along with overrides and perdiem) and work rules. That's not how pattern bargaining is supposed to work. My view for what it's worth.
 
giddy said:
I'd probably be a yes voter but we have just given up way too much in terms of work rules (phone contact, vacation, reassignment, reserve rules, and PBS) Never give up work rules is the cardinal rule I've always believed in. And even if we accept the notion that Spirit and we are in a lower class the pattern of our bargaining is a downward slope in terms of compensation (when all years and positions of the pay scale are considered along with overrides and perdiem) and work rules. That's not how pattern bargaining is supposed to work. My view for what it's worth.
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uhm did we read the same thing? before i go in the long rant, two things explain to me what you think the contract means with 1. phone contact and 2. reserve.
 
CFIT99 said:
uhm did we read the same thing? before i go in the long rant, two things explain to me what you think the contract means with 1. phone contact and 2. reserve.
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You've got to be a little more specific
Why don't you start by telling me what you think are improvements in those two areas
 
Phone contact, I hear so many people losing their minds over this. Current book, the company can call you ANY TIME during your trip and you are subject to reassignment. New book they have specific times that they can call you. I don't understand why people are so upset about this wording. Maybe I'm missing something.
 
giddy said:
You've got to be a little more specific
Why don't you start by telling me what you think are improvements in those two areas
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I was vague on purpose, because so far pilots that are upset about certain parts either jumped to conclusions/didn’t read ththe contract correctly/ignore what the road shows explained OR are just pissed so they are voting no.

I have my complaints but people actually think it was going to be our demands or else. when in actuality we are dealing with a Investment management and not an airline management.
 
CFIT99 said:
I was vague on purpose, because so far pilots that are upset about certain parts either jumped to conclusions/didn’t read ththe contract correctly/ignore what the road shows explained OR are just pissed so they are voting no.

I have my complaints but people actually think it was going to be our demands or else. when in actuality we are dealing with a Investment management and not an airline management.
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You are again being vague and I would offer that I’ve heard people misinterpreting the TA on both sides. And the union has been misleading in my opinion too, “Our rates are industry standard when you factor in the average pilot flies 93 hours a month so when you factor in the 125 % incentive on the 11 hours that kicks in after 82 it’s industry standard” can’t believe that’s their argument. The one thing that I’ve heard almost unanimously is this is well below expectations so some are willing to settle some are not.
 
Eagle421flyer said:
Wish I was a line holder, upgraded two years ago and can't hold one (unless its Christmas and everyone bids down). Never checker boarded but my wife works for a different airline so most months I would drop a day or two from one block and a day or two from another so I wasn't on for 6, pbs is my nightmare I won't be able to drop anything. @Cruise don't worry I probably would have voted yes for this if reserve's hadn't taken it up the tailpipe so bad.
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you realize you'll be able to bid 4 on 3 off with pbs right? If that's what you want to try and match your wife's schedules.

Stop boogeymanning PBS before you even see it.
 
elmetal said:
you realize you'll be able to bid 4 on 3 off with pbs right? If that's what you want to try and match your wife's schedules.

Stop boogeymanning PBS before you even see it.
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I don't need to make it bad before I see it, I'm on reserve I know it will be bad. I will only be able to drop once a year once pbs kicks in.
 
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