From FAA to JAA

Jfk-Pilot

Well-Known Member
So basically, after i finish up my CFII, I might have the opportunity of moving to Europe (Germany) or Russia, because i have family on that side of the pond.

So I was just wondering, how hard is it to transfer all of my ratings to the JAA standard? and also if there are any fellow JC'ers that have any experience in working as a commercial pilot in europe?

From What I heard, there is more demand for pilots in europe, but the minimums are much higher, then here in the U.S.
 

Polar742

All the responsibility none of the authority
Naples Air Center has some info on the tedious, arduous and expensive process.

My $.02, I wouldn't do it unless you have the right to live/work in the EU.

Best of luck.
 

Hubbs

Well-Known Member
Definitely not worth it unless you have a guaranteed job and/or right to work in the EU.

Also it is a whole lot easier once you have your ATPL, otherwise you'll need to redo your IR as they don't fully accept a FAA IR. You will need to sit 14 written exams.
 

fsiflyer

Well-Known Member
Definitely not worth it unless you have a guaranteed job and/or right to work in the EU.

Also it is a whole lot easier once you have your ATPL, otherwise you'll need to redo your IR as they don't fully accept a FAA IR. You will need to sit 14 written exams.
Yeah all that ^

Be prepared to spend alot of $$$$! Unless you have something guaranteed and the right to work it may be a huge headache. Plus there are lots of jobs that don't need a JAA. I am Moscow Russia based and all I have is an FAA ATP and it seems to work just fine. Good luck.
 

v1valarob

Well-Known Member
I typed this up in another thread:

Im a UK citizen and have looked into how to convert all of my stuff to JAA. Its a huge pain in the ass.

The easiest way to do it is to get all of your licenses in FAA first. Its cheaper that way. The cost to fly a plane in europe for even an hour is insane in comparison to what we pay over here.

For your commercial license you can go down to one of many florida schools who have examiners on site and will test you to JAA standards and then you will have your JAA commercial. However this DOES NOT include instrument privileges. To get your JAA instrument you will have to physically fly in Europe for 15 hours, and then take a checkride over there. This is where the chunk of the cost comes in. Think something like $300 an hour to fly a Cessna around.

Ok, so now you have your JAA Comm w/ instrument privileges. However in JAA land this is not competitive. You must have whats called a Frozen ATPL. Its pretty much like getting your FAA ATP prior to meeting the hour requirements, and then once you get your hour requirements its becomes unfrozen. However in JAA land, for your ATPL you don't just take your written, oral and practical. You take 14 written essays on theories that range from meteorology to aerodynamics and whatever else they come up with. Your required to have something like 700 hours of ground school prior to taking these tests. Basically it means you will have to have a year of ground school before being allowed to sit these exams. There is a school in florida which will let you do an distance learning self study ground school. However they still build in 6 months of study for 1 module, and you are required to do 2 modules. So its still a year of studying. Once you are ready to sit these exams, you must physically sit the exams in Europe.

Ok, so now you have your JAA ATPL Frozen. However your STILL not competitive. Most airlines require you to get your type rating on your own dime. So now you have to go pick a type, and hope someone will pick you up.

Basically, its not worth it. The easiest way (at least for me) is to go through this loop hole of having time in a multi crew aircraft:

Quote:
ATPL Conversions
If you are converting a non-JAA ATPL the number of ground and flight tests you need to complete depends on your experience. High Time Pilots
If you are very experienced you should you should apply to the CAA for a formal assessment using Form SRG 1103.
The qualifying criteria are:

  • more than 3000 hours total time on aircraft of more than 30,000kg AUW
  • more than 1500 hours pilot in command on aircraft of more than 30,000kg AUW
  • type rated on an aircraft of more than 30,000kg AUW
  • more than 500 hours total time on the aircraft above
  • able to complete a flight test on the same aircraft
When you have completed the assessment form you need to send it or take it to the CAA with your original licences and log books. The CAA will tell you that you need to pass two written exams, Human Performance and Aviation Law, and pass a flight test on the aircraft you are rated on. The flight test is referred to as a skills test, it is part handling check and part IR renewal check.

Experienced In Two Pilot Operations
If you don't meet the criteria above but have

  • more than 1500 hours on two-pilot aircraft,
  • are type rated already and
  • have more than 500 hours on type
you need to pass all 14 ground exams but don't need to attend a formal groundschool course. You may take a skills test on the aircraft you are rated on or you may choose to take two separate tests, a skills test for license issue and an IR conversion.

None of the Above If you fall into neither category above for whatever reason but still hold an ATPL you must complete an approved course of ground training and get your application form signed by your training provider before you sit the full set of ATPL exams. The length of the course can be reduced at the discretion of the Head of Training.
You need to complete two separate flight tests.

  • A Skills Test
  • An Instrument Rating
The skills test is a handling check flown on a complex aircraft, defined as an aircraft with retractable gear and a variable pitch prop. There is no formal training requirement before the test but you should anticipate 5 to 10 hours to get used to the profile and the aircraft.
If you hold an ATPL you must, by definition, also hold an ICAO IR. This needs to be converted to a JAA IR. The training requirement to convert is a minimum of fifteen hours, up to ten of which can be flown in a simulator.
Under some circumstances the CAA will allow ATPL holders who are currently flying a two-pilot aircraft and type rated but without 500 hours on type to take a single flight test on type.
These are some schools I have found that can aid in conversions:

http://www.bristol.gs/default.asp

http://www.flyoft.com/

http://www.naples-air-center.com/index.php?view=74

Who says you need PPRune ;D
 

swisspilot

Well-Known Member
So basically, after i finish up my CFII, I might have the opportunity of moving to Europe (Germany) or Russia, because i have family on that side of the pond.

So I was just wondering, how hard is it to transfer all of my ratings to the JAA standard? and also if there are any fellow JC'ers that have any experience in working as a commercial pilot in europe?

From What I heard, there is more demand for pilots in europe, but the minimums are much higher, then here in the U.S.
There are no minimums, you just need the right papers. The law is about to change and all the US schools with JAA licenses are going to stop their training, and anyway already now you have to do your IR in europe.

If you are looking for an entry level job you need to have the right to work before you apply, if you have tons of TT you might get a working visa.

A lot of airlines require a type, 30 to 35K for that...

Yes it's gonna be a $$$$ process but if you make it you are going to make big $$$, stuff you don't even see as a capt here in the states.
 

Gulfstream IV

New Member
Yes it's gonna be a $$$$ process but if you make it you are going to make big $$$, stuff you don't even see as a capt here in the states.[/quote]

I have heard the same thing about pay in EU land.
 

kellwolf

Piece of Trash
JAA, where? To be hired you can't just go to somebody that as a sim in the backyard, this is where most people go and it's around 25K euro http://www.cae.com/www2004/index.shtml
AFAIK, the type rating goes on existing cert, so the type is JAA if you've got a JAA cert and FAA if you've got an FAA cert. I might be wrong on that, but you can get 737 types at good places here in the US for a fraction of that $30-35K figure. Our own FlyChicaga got his at Higher Power, and I HIGHLY doubt he paid anywhere NEAR $30K.
 

swisspilot

Well-Known Member
Yes it's gonna be a $$$$ process but if you make it you are going to make big $$$, stuff you don't even see as a capt here in the states.
I have heard the same thing about pay in EU land.[/quote]

Yes pay is much higher, actually after doctors is the most paid employee job. But you have to consider that the life is also much more expensive , if you are lucky to get a base like in Spain you will be living as a king, but I wouldn't say the same about UK. An other big diference is upgrade time, much faster...
 

taseal

Well-Known Member
man this is really bad...

wtf am I gonna do if I go back to turkey to fly? I doubt there are any N registered planes there...

:(
 

bareman

Well-Known Member
I understand that getting Canadian licenses is a fairly simple process, and getting Canadian - JAA is fairly easy as well. Would it be worth the roundabout process? Does anyone know if this is a possibility?
 

Benji86

New Member
How do citizens of the EU, who want to be pilots pay for their training? Everything I have read about flight training over there sounds so cost prohibitive that I would think that very few get their training done. But European aviation does not sound like its hurting for pilots
 

unclenobby

Well-Known Member
A JAA type is not the same as FAA type. I would be at ryanair if that was the case.
Irish airlines can get pilots with the right qualifications waivers from the IAA (Ryanair - 737/8 etc and Aer Arann - ATR 72). I saw a thread on another site some Alaska guys looking into Ryanair. Although RYR are parking planes right now in Dublin and Stansted and giving pilots a week of unpaid leave for all their hard work.
 

unclenobby

Well-Known Member
How do citizens of the EU, who want to be pilots pay for their training? Everything I have read about flight training over there sounds so cost prohibitive that I would think that very few get their training done. But European aviation does not sound like its hurting for pilots
Easy access to credit (not anymore) and a favourable FX rate with the $$. A lot of guys went to Florida and other JAA farms and did the JAA ATPL and JAA CSEL for a lot cheaper than back in Eurozone.
They did have to do the ME IR back in Europe though which is costly (10 - 15K), and a lot of them paid for type to get onboard the low cost bus (another 20/30 K).
 
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