ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
I mean, you don’t have to read it?
Freezing rain
- Thread starter av8tr1
- Start date
I mean, you don’t have to read it?
True. I flew vans in the winter and like to help people out but not when it becomes the internet and the goal post keeps moving to fit their point.
pete2800
'Member?
Nailed it.
It's like this:
I landed the other day, and we had some cold soaked fuel frost on the underside of the wing. This is allowable for takeoff, as per the procedures. I don't have a ladder, and couldn't see the top, so we called ops for an ice check. The vendor comes out and advises that we'll need to be de-iced. As it turns out, the people doing the ice check are the same vendor the company pays for deicing. Ice checks used to be maintenance's job, but that got outsourced. I looked outside and watched them spray fluid on the underside of the wing, and not on the top, because there was no frost on the top.
I'm sure it would have been cheaper and more efficient, as well as still legal and safe, for us to skip the deicing. But the people who are authorized to check said to do it, and it seems if the company wanted to save money on deicing, they could either educate the vendor or pay mechanics to get a ladder and check for ice. Either way, I just do what I'm told. The only way for stupid procedures to get fixed is if their stupidity impacts operation performance often enough that someone who isn't a front-line employee can see that we're doing something stupid.
av8tr1
"Never tell me the odds!"
This was an actual event that happened. I can provide the ATIS reports we were given and a copy of the ATC recordings if anyone wants. Basically for the period the ATIS was being updated roughly every 5 mins. Its about a 4 hour period. The controllers on the other hand were doing nothing but saying when the new ATIS was out. The didn't report FZRA to the pilots coming into land. It was only when one pilot questioned the ATIS info and conditions at the airport did the controllers start saying anything. The question was if the controllers say one thing and the ATIS says something else are you ok to land. Part of the question was if you ask the tower and they say even if the ATIS reports freezing rain but it isn't falling at that very moment can you land?
The question was part of a 135 checkride but was a real event that happened in the past. I said no you can't land. I was told I was wrong. But I wasn't provided any regulatory info to back it up. I still say no you can't land. I am still told I am wrong.
So the question is if the ATIS says one thing and the tower says something else what do you do? If the difference is something that would result in a safety violation one way and not the other way what would you do in that situation?
Cessnaflyer
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
I looked more into it on the controller side. The smaller towers the controllers will be certified weather observers. Large airports have NWS observers at them. I've always been told that if the tower controller issues the current weather it is acceptable to go with that.
I don't have my old airline stuff, but when we operated into PHJH the radio operator was a certified weather observer and would give us updates so we could shoot our special VOR approach.
I don't have my old airline stuff, but when we operated into PHJH the radio operator was a certified weather observer and would give us updates so we could shoot our special VOR approach.
A300Capt
Freight Dawg
We'll have to ask Capt Kirk as this appears to be a Kobayashi Maru scenario.
Last edited:
D
Deleted member 27505
Guest
Takeoff vs Landing.
Landing: If you're inbound with tower telling you their own report (METAR/ATIS) is currently not true, and you verify that, and you're not already iced up, keep your speed up and land for god's sake. You'll have the plausible deniability you want, and the pavement you crave at a time like that.
Taking off: Take offs are easy. Just don't do it during reported or observed proscribing conditions.
I'm guessing you're not in a plane with bleed air heaters and lots of excess thrust here. If that's the case and your conditions were anything like they were in the upper midwest the last few days, you're likely not going to find a significantly different alternative within fuel range, and if you do, by the time you get there, you'll have iced up anyway.
Good luck! We're all counting on you!
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
D
Deleted member 27505
Guest
The tower makes the report. It's their report. If they subsequently make an oral report to you updating their previous written report (like they do with winds and RVR all the time), and the new report puts you within your legal operating restriction envelope, you're good. Land.
135 ALWAYS wants you to get the trip done. The answer the interviewers were probably looking for probably was a variant of @A300Capt 's Kobayashi Maru : Make some hissing and crackling sounds with your lips, report radio trouble, then pull the breakers on your comms and NORDO it to the runway. Freezing rain? Never heard it. Must have been the ice on the antennae.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Ahh, the old "I'm inside the final approach fix" when you're actually 30 miles from it.
gotWXdagain
Polished Member
“You didn’t specify WHICH final approach fix! I was [geographically] inside the final approach fix for YIP! Nevermind I was going to FNT!”
Steamboatflyer
New Member
Sorry to jump in late, forecast is forecast. It is never “reporting”. If the observation is no freezing rain and your GOM allows, landing with no freezing rain in metar...He might be getting at what is legal and what is good ADM. Regardless, pin him down on improper use of reporting when describing forecast
NovemberEcho
Dergs favorite member
Fify
And that automated weather stuff isn't always accurate. I've seen SKC -DZ plenty of times
over2departure
Sounds like my first marriage.
Not sure if this helps your situation, but at my last non-flying job I was working for airport ops at a busy towered GA airport in the NY Metro area. My office (not ATCT) was directly in charge of all weather observations and issuing METARs/SPECIs.... that ultimately would be sent to the tower and transmitted via the ATIS.
If you take a look at FAA Order JO 7900.5C (basic guidelines as for how the FAA would like weather to be reported) you'll find the excerpt below:
3.12. Criteria for SPECI Observations. The observer must take, record, and disseminate a SPECI
observation when any of the following is observed to occur:
d. Tornado, Funnel Cloud, or Waterspout. (1) Is observed. (2) Disappears from sight or ends.
e. Thunderstorm. (1) Begins (a SPECI report is not required to report the beginning of a new thunderstorm if one is currently reported). (2) Ends.
f. Precipitation. (1) Hail begins or ends. (2) Freezing precipitation begins, ends, or changes intensity. (3) Ice pellets begin, end, or change intensity.
So with the given scenario that you have described, it is the responsibility of the weather observer (in this case the Tower Controller or designated weather observer) to issue a SPECI when the FZRA begins and again when it ends. If the tower is advising you there is no longer any freezing precip occuring on the field, then it should be their responsibility to ensure there is a new report being transmitted that reflects that. I can tell you first hand from personal experience that from the time a SPECI was issued electronically to the time it would be transmitted via the ATIS would usually take anywhere between 3-6 minutes (at my old office, not sure if its like this anywhere else). Perhaps asking ATC if a new METAR/ATIS is being issued might help your decision making should you encounter the same situation again. Food for thought.