Forbes Article on Regional Pilot Pay vs McDonalds Pay

Side note...do you know if your airline looks at graduate degrees as a substantial positive in their current hiring?

Absolutely.

I wouldn't necessarily suggest delaying application to go pursue an advanced degree, but if you've already got one, you'll move to the short stack.

They hired a new round of flight attendants and I think even that group had at least four year degrees.
 
Woodrow Wilson in a speech to the Princeton Alumni in Pittsburgh back in the day. The subject of the speech was how Abraham Lincoln had been a self educated man and upset the status quo.

He went on to say that "Men of the institution" should throw all their weight into both discrediting outsiders and also to indoctrinate all who enter those institutions.

This plan was very successful.

Of course I'm just an uneducated hayseed trucker and this statement hasn't been peer reviewed by jackasses that agree with me politically.

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It doesn't.

But airlines don't hire pilots, they hire employees.

An undergraduate degree makes a person a better employee, not a better pilot. They've shown that they can accomplish a (minimally) rigorous academic program and do it while interacting with a whole bunch of people from a whole bunch of backgrounds, do it on time, on budget, and without pissing off the wrong people so as to get kicked out of school.

It's a good predictor for how that person will behave as an employee, and although it's just one metric, it isn't dispositive.

Airlines don't hire the guy that can shoot the best single engine ILS approach, they hire the person that they think will make them the most money. Making the most money requires the best employees.

Also, you have to look at it from HR's perspective. Everybody in HR will have, at the least, an undergraduate degree, and quite possibly a better education than that. How do you convince HR that they should give you the keys to a $300 million aircraft if you can't be bothered to follow directions and get an undergraduate degree? That has nothing to do with being a good pilot, it has to do with being a good employee.


So what you are telling me is basically that, running a team of guys, following the direction of management and making it to a role as a lead, passing all my certification tests in that field, learning and being sucessful at a trade, and being solicited for positions in that former career field doesn't show the same? I move to Florida from California because my resume was online and I was solicited for a "Lead Technician" position. My team consistantly made more money for the shop than the other four teams, and we had less comebacks than the other teams. I would argue that a four year degree, while it may do some of what you speak of, would show the same as one who has that kind of background. Following direction is just as important as giving it. Being a supervisor requires following direction to get to that level, as well as being able to give it once you reach that level. Both good attributes to have in someone in control of a $30 million jet($300 mil?).

As for what HR does, I couldn't care less what that job requires for entry, it's not my part of the industry.

Another good predictor of how well someone will do is their previous work experince. Did they jump around from industry to industry? Or did they stick it out in their previous one, or the one they are currently in, and make something of it? I did, and I am. That is also a good predictor. I could also buy that argument, if they didn't require me to list my previous X years of employment history. But they do. And employment history shows that you could not only follow direction(or not), but also that you were good at it, because you didn't get fired("are you eligible for re-hire" and "have you ever been terminiated or forced to resign") .

I've know pleanty of guys who do have the degree that can follow direction until they get out on the line. I dealt with a Riddle grad where I was last that was a great test taker, but had the people skills of a wild boar and has been jumping around from job to job because he runs his mouth, refuses to follow direction, and runs customers off. I've also know more than a few "cowboys" who after a few years, finally get their degree, and it doesn't change them in the terms you are speaking of. There is one in specific that I can think of that is a member here who will remain anynomous. At least pubically.

Anyone can get a four year degree whether they follow direction or not. It may take them longer, but they can still get it. I've known guys who are ASE Master Tech's, that couldn't fix their way out of a wet paper bag, with the aid of a service manual and a Tech Hotline to call.

IMO, it's used as an easy metric to weed out people and make HR's job a little eaiser because I am certian that with the flood of resumes that some companies are getting, it must be a real pain in the ass (so glad I can say ass here!).
 
There are exceptions to every rule, but I think what Mr Derg is trying to share is the point that... "this is what's going to help you get hired". Arguing the practical value of that particular requirement is good social discourse but it doesn't change the fact that if you want Mr Derg's job, you better look attractive to the employer, and that's one of the things they want... simple as that. If nothing else, the "value" of the degree is in the fact that it can help you get the job, even if the underlying education is irrelevant.
 
Train forgot to drop the microphone and walk off stage with the above.

I'm one of the few at my airline that "just" has a bachelors degree. Masters, some doctorates, Ivy League-educated, service academy, etc. Hell, one of my favorite captains is a Harvard grad, former SEAL, ex-NE Patriots, I'm sure when he was hired, it was more than "I wonder can he fly the best ILS".

Maybe I should have used the word "aviator" then. To me, being a pilot is much much more than just flying a good ILS.
 
Oh please, it is simple.


Get the degree and have a chance to apply at places like Delta.

Don't get the degree, don't bitch if you get stuck somewhere, and don't tell those with a degree how worthless it is.

I never said it was usless. Keep it within the context.
 
desertdog71 said:
Woodrow Wilson in a speech to the Princeton Alumni in Pittsburgh back in the day. The subject of the speech was how Abraham Lincoln had been a self educated man and upset the status quo.

He went on to say that "Men of the institution" should throw all their weight into both discrediting outsiders and also to indoctrinate all who enter those institutions.

This plan was very successful.

Of course I'm just an uneducated hayseed trucker and this statement hasn't been peer reviewed by jackasses that agree with me politically.

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If you want to bring up Lincoln here and go all History Channel in this thread, out of all Presidents, the ones who have the most similar backgrounds to Lincoln, are Clinton and Obama.
 
I never said it was usless. Keep it within the context.


The word "useless" has been tossed around a lot in this thread...I think that's what is being responded to.

I don't doubt that you can be every bit as proficient and professional an aviator without a 4-year degree as with one. But if you look at a large sample size--say, hundreds or thousands of applicants--I guarantee you that having a degree is a good predictor of suitability for the job. That's why the requirement is there at the best companies...they don't just make up arbitrary requirements. I understand that it's really frustrating for people who put a ton of effort into building successful careers and experience without going to college, but as a whole the industry does see degree-holding individuals as more qualified.
 
Maybe I should have used the word "aviator" then. To me, being a pilot is much much more than just flying a good ILS.

According to Wikipedia (so take this with a grain of salt), there are over 600,000 active certificated pilots of which a little over 120,000 are commercially qualified.

12,000+ applications on file.

You want to hire 300 sharp, well-qualified, well rounded pilots that you not only need to safely operate your aircraft, but problem solve and "engage" the customers at every opportunity. Every Tom, Dick and Harry can fly an airplane and disappear into the pilot lounge on productivity sits, but after spending (what I feel) is an inordinate amount of time on quarterly CQ distance learning, they think of each individual pilot as a moving billboard for the airline, engaging customers, representing the airline. They're looking for more than just a pilot and the degree requirement happens to be one of the discriminators they use to "thin" the masses.

I don't cut the checks, write corporate policy and if the sign to the roller coaster says "You Must Be This Tall to Ride", well, you'd better be that tall to ride, or get in line for the Ferris Wheel.

I think they're hiring the right people and I send them recommendations every hiring cycle of people who I know match the corporate philosophy.
 
desertdog71 said:
What does that have to do with anything?

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You decided to interject Lincoln (like what does he have to do with regional pilot pay) in the thread so I want to make sure we got the full context.
 
The problem I see now with "required education" are the words "At Least" when people are referencing a 4 year degree with employment... It used to be that a 4 year BS degree was something to have. Now it's barely a step above an AA. Anyone can get their Bachelors if they just show up and pay the money. It's more sacrifice than it is work.

If you have a degree that covers a broad scale you are considered to not be focused enough, but if your degree is concentrated in one particular area are you are a one trick pony. Now we need multiple degrees or a graduate degree to be considered competitive, on order to be considered a "good employee". When does this "good employee" actually have time to go out into the workforce and learn how things really work if all they're doing is spending their time and money accumulating degrees? That was one thing great about aviation, you could have a degree in pretty much anything and you could get hired! You didn't have to put all your eggs in one basket like so many other industrial technology jobs out there.

Oh, and not ONCE have a I even been asked in an interview about my degree, education or anything relating to it. It's on my resume. Apparently thats all they care about.
 
You decided to interject Lincoln (like what does he have to do with regional pilot pay) in the thread so I want to make sure we got the full context.
No. I gave you the origin of why college degrees became important.

You made it about something else.

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The word "useless" has been tossed around a lot in this thread...I think that's what is being responded to.

I don't doubt that you can be every bit as proficient and professional an aviator without a 4-year degree as with one. But if you look at a large sample size--say, hundreds or thousands of applicants--I guarantee you that having a degree is a good predictor of suitability for the job. That's why the requirement is there at the best companies...they don't just make up arbitrary requirements. I understand that it's really frustrating for people who put a ton of effort into building successful careers and experience without going to college, but as a whole the industry does see degree-holding individuals as more qualified.

With how many people today have a degree, I would disagree. 15-20 or more years ago, yes. But in todays age, I would disagree.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/24/education/census-finds-bachelors-degrees-at-record-level.html?_r=0
http://www.census.gov/prod/2012pubs/p20-566.pdf

Educational_Attainment_in_the_United_States_2009.png


What I'm getting at is ask yourself this question. if all of the sudden there is a 10% rise in people getting a degree, there is 10% more people who are "better employees?" All it proves is that 10% more people went to four more years of school, not that there is all of the sudden %10 more people who are better employees.
 
They're looking for more than just a pilot and the degree requirement happens to be one of the discriminators they use to "thin" the masses.


This is what I'm trying to get at. It's a metric used to "thin the herd." IMO, it's not that far off from PFT/PFJ, as necessary as it may be.
 
This is what I'm trying to get at. It's a metric used to "thin the heard." IMO, it's not that far off from PFT/PFJ, as necessary as it may be.

Whoa whoa. Having a degree and PFT/PFJing aren't even in the same ballpark Jules. Thinning the herd, yes. That's just lazy HR stuff, ain't nothing ever going to change that. No one's resume is ever going to be so "Kung Fu Panda Awesome" without a degree that a HR drone is going to look at it, proclaim multiple orgrasms and run right up the stairs to the boss and demand hiring practices be changed.

The game has rules, play within them or don't or start your own airline and change the rules.
 
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