For canadian_atc
- Thread starter derg
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Vector4Food
This job would be easier without all the airplanes
When you say converging, are you talking about two aircraft crossing a common point? That statement blows me away, it's interesting how different we work, if I even made a statement like that on the floor they'd probably yank my licence. Kidding of course. (sort of)
We're bound by ICAO standards, nothing in there about using expected radar contact, but again we don't play by the same rule book.
What do you do if one or both airplanes doesn't get in radar contact? I guess a major difference is that the aircraft are your control prior to coast in as well.
Also, 12 minutes at CARAC in the scenario you mentioned is a no go, I wouldn't have taken it either.
Procedural separation is a funny beast for primarily radar only airspace, some of the rules don't seem to follow common sense, but hey, if they keep paying me my pay cheque, I can abide by them all day long
GolfChuck
Trustworthy Source
canadian_atc
Yeah, it concerned me as well when I first got to the center (I'd write big red W's on the tickets and then get admonished). A lot of times during the day we will have northbound aircraft on L462 going to KBOS or CYUL at the same time we have westbound traffic landing the New York airports, KPHL, KIAD. We don't have the second landfall fixes like a lot of other centers do. Our radar coverage extends beyond those fixes, and it is very rare that any single aircraft, let alone multiple, would not be radar contact by the time they reach the boundary fix. I would make the argument that a NORDO situation would be more likely. If the convergence is so close that it would be a hazard in radar, then it wouldn't be good for oceanic standards either (for instance, the courses may cross, but with 6 minutes at the crossing point, the aircraft would still be greater than 5 miles apart). Bottom line is if the ATOP computer says it is good, then it is good. The anticipated radar separation rule is out of the terminal section of the 7110.65, but we apply it to oceanic traffic, I have been advised that they are trying to get it added to the oceanic section.
We also use anticipated separation transitioning from radar to non-radar. There is a hard and fast rule with that one though. Aircraft that have established radar separation can be transitioned to non-radar as long as they are established on courses that diverge by 15 degrees or more leaving radar service.
Yeah, it concerned me as well when I first got to the center (I'd write big red W's on the tickets and then get admonished). A lot of times during the day we will have northbound aircraft on L462 going to KBOS or CYUL at the same time we have westbound traffic landing the New York airports, KPHL, KIAD. We don't have the second landfall fixes like a lot of other centers do. Our radar coverage extends beyond those fixes, and it is very rare that any single aircraft, let alone multiple, would not be radar contact by the time they reach the boundary fix. I would make the argument that a NORDO situation would be more likely. If the convergence is so close that it would be a hazard in radar, then it wouldn't be good for oceanic standards either (for instance, the courses may cross, but with 6 minutes at the crossing point, the aircraft would still be greater than 5 miles apart). Bottom line is if the ATOP computer says it is good, then it is good. The anticipated radar separation rule is out of the terminal section of the 7110.65, but we apply it to oceanic traffic, I have been advised that they are trying to get it added to the oceanic section.
We also use anticipated separation transitioning from radar to non-radar. There is a hard and fast rule with that one though. Aircraft that have established radar separation can be transitioned to non-radar as long as they are established on courses that diverge by 15 degrees or more leaving radar service.
Vector4Food
This job would be easier without all the airplanes
Wow... that's pretty interesting. I admit it would be nice if we could be that flexible. Definately explains a lot of the "How the hell are they doing that?" around the building 
