For anyone thinking of taking out a loan

GypsyPilot said:
0-3.99% interest for revolving credit? That's great! Guess what though? Joe Schmoe public isn't paying that. Again, guys like Ramsey are for the folks paying crazy rates. I've never even heard of rates such as yours for revolving credit, I would assume you understand that's not typical?
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Ramsey's advice is great for financial train wrecks. For everybody else, his advice precludes the most common strategies for wealth building. From time to time, he gets a call from somebody with rental property and positive cash flow - he hypocritically jumps off his "no debt" train.
 
Pilot Fighter said:
Ramsey's advice is great for financial train wrecks. For everybody else, his advice precludes the most common strategies for wealth building. From time to time, he gets a call from somebody with rental property and positive cash flow - he hypocritically jumps off his "no debt" train.
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Agreed. Guess what? There are a lot of financial train wrecks out there. Like, lots.
 
exneophyte said:
Before we attack @ATN_Pilot about his low rates, I would encourage you to do further research on why he receives his rates. This is a complex formula that in and of itself he explained in recent previous posts.
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I'm not attacking him, and I don't care about his rates.

The point is (again, ugh...), most people with revolving credit card debt don't pay his rates. They're paying loan shark style 18%+ rates. That's not good, and these are the people that need some real basic financial help.

How many times does it have to be said Dave Ramsey isn't for guys like ATN or Dasleben? Isn't that like, uh, pretty obvious?
 
Dave Ramsey will be the first to say that there are mathematically better ways to pay off your debts than smallest to largest but his callers have already shown that math is not the problem. It is more about attitude and control. Paying off the smallest debt first gets people to feel like they are finally starting to win with money. It's an emotional victory to have one less creditor calling their house. One less debt on their list. It has nothing to do with math.
 
GypsyPilot said:
0-3.99% interest for revolving credit? That's great! Guess what though? Joe Schmoe public isn't paying that. Again, guys like Ramsey are for the folks paying crazy rates. I've never even heard of rates such as yours for revolving credit, I would assume you understand that's not typical?
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Actually, it's very common for people who have credit scores above 680. Banks love to loan us money at low rates, because they know there isn't the slightest chance in hell that we won't pay it back, so they're making a zero-risk investment. It's win-win. I get incredibly cheap money, and the bank makes a modest return for zero risk. I know people who have started their entire real estate investment portfolio off of revolving credit card debt at practically zero interest. It's enough to make a Ramsey disciple's head explode. But that's why the Ramsey disciple has a net worth of $20k, and the investor with the revolving credit line has a net worth in the hundreds of thousands.
 
GypsyPilot said:
I'm not attacking him, and I don't care about his rates.

The point is (again, ugh...), most people with revolving credit card debt don't pay his rates. They're paying loan shark style 18%+ rates. That's not good, and these are the people that need some real basic financial help.

How many times does it have to be said Dave Ramsey isn't for guys like ATN or Dasleben? Isn't that like, uh, pretty obvious?
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Here's the problem with Ramsey, he applies his train wreck techniques to normal financially responsible folks. He would rather somebody be broke by paying off a mortgage than encourage conservative wealth-building strategies. A bad economy is a yard sale for those with some cash and access to credit. Ramsey's strategies are financial dead-ends for many yet he won't carve out exclusions where appropriate. I also find it appalling that he uses his followers' belief in certain mythologies to further his financial philosophy.
 
GypsyPilot said:
I'm not attacking him, and I don't care about his rates.

The point is (again, ugh...), most people with revolving credit card debt don't pay his rates. They're paying loan shark style 18%+ rates. That's not good, and these are the people that need some real basic financial help.

How many times does it have to be said Dave Ramsey isn't for guys like ATN or Dasleben? Isn't that like, uh, pretty obvious?
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But the people you're talking about are the ones most harmed by Ramsey's approach! If I followed Ramsey's approach, it basically wouldn't cost me anything. I might be paying off a card with a 3% rate instead of a card with a 0.9% rate. The difference is negligible. But for someone with three credit cards at rates of 10.99%, 19.99%, and 27.99%, the difference is enormous. He's extending the amount of time it will take them to get out of debt, and he's making them pay a hell of a lot more for the "privilege."

The people most targeted by Ramsey are the people most harmed by him. That's why it bothers me so much.
 
lr31apilot said:
Dave Ramsey will be the first to say that there are mathematically better ways to pay off your debts than smallest to largest but his callers have already shown that math is not the problem. It is more about attitude and control. Paying off the smallest debt first gets people to feel like they are finally starting to win with money. It's an emotional victory to have one less creditor calling their house. One less debt on their list. It has nothing to do with math.
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If you can't learn to control your emotions and focus on the numbers, then you're never going to get out of problems with money, anyway. As I said before, it's just like people with fad diets. It may work for a little while, but you're going to fail long-term if you don't just accept the hard truths. The focus needs to be on eschewing emotions when it comes to money, and only focusing on the numbers. Any approach that coddles the destructive emotions instead of addressing them head-on is doomed for failure long-term.
 
GypsyPilot said:
I'm not attacking him, and I don't care about his rates.

The point is (again, ugh...), most people with revolving credit card debt don't pay his rates. They're paying loan shark style 18%+ rates. That's not good, and these are the people that need some real basic financial help.

How many times does it have to be said Dave Ramsey isn't for guys like ATN or Dasleben? Isn't that like, uh, pretty obvious?
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I'm someone who has had the privilege of seeing both sides. If you don't believe me, look at my experience in post #164. I don't claim Dave Ramsey to be my messiah, neither is ATN Pilot.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
If you can't learn to control your emotions and focus on the numbers, then you're never going to get out of problems with money, anyway. As I said before, it's just like people with fad diets. It may work for a little while, but you're going to fail long-term if you don't just accept the hard truths. The focus needs to be on eschewing emotions when it comes to money, and only focusing on the numbers. Any approach that coddles the destructive emotions instead of addressing them head-on is doomed for failure long-term.
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There is nothing in your post to disagree with. I would only note that when someone trains for a marathon they don't start out by running 26.2 miles on day one.
 
It allowed me to go from hour 1 to my first airline job from June 2004 to October 2005. It gave me the money to get my ratings done quickly instead of 'paying as I go' and miss an opportunity to get on at a place that allowed me to upgrade quickly.

Be careful with getting a loan, but get one if you need to.
 
exneophyte said:
I apppreciate your input. Would you care to explain how in financial terms?
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I think Seggy is about 30. Using the Ramsey plan, he'd still be a junior RJ first officer right now, because it would have taken so long to get his ratings with the pay-as-you-go approach. Instead, he's a legacy airline FO on the front-end of the biggest hiring wave since post-Vietnam. He'll be in the left seat of a widebody in his mid-40s, most likely. The difference in career earnings, especially when you figure in the time value of money, is absolutely astronomical.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I think Seggy is about 30. Using the Ramsey plan, he'd still be a junior RJ first officer right now, because it would have taken so long to get his ratings with the pay-as-you-go approach. Instead, he's a legacy airline FO on the front-end of the biggest hiring wave since post-Vietnam. He'll be in the left seat of a widebody in his mid-40s, most likely. The difference in career earnings, especially when you figure in the time value of money, is absolutely astronomical.
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I turned 30 four days ago, am debt free except for a mortgage, payed cash for all my ratings while in college waiting tables at an Outback Steakhouse. My parents never grossed more than 50K my whole life. It absolutely can be done.
 
lr31apilot said:
I turned 30 four days ago, am debt free except for a mortgage, payed cash for all my ratings while in college waiting tables at an Outback Steakhouse. My parents never grossed more than 50K my whole life. It absolutely can be done.
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How long did it take you to do your ratings?
 
mikecweb said:
How long did it take you to do your ratings?
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2002 started college
2004 private
2005 instrument
2006 finished college and Comm
2007 got very lucky to find a right seat king air job with 450 hours total time
2014 Lear 31/35 PIC with 3,100 hours total time

I will admit it takes longer and I have way less total time than others but I have met a lot of guys who grumble about loan payments instead of enjoying the view.
 
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