? for Active CFII's
- Thread starter EatSleepFly
- Start date
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Re: ? for Active CFII\'s
[ QUOTE ]
The instructor gets to log PIC because he/she IS PIC.
[/ QUOTE ]I'm not sure what you mean.
A private and above pilot who is doing the flying gets to log PIC because she is "the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated" whether or not the pilot is acting as PIC
A CFI who is giving training in flight gets to log PIC because "[a]n authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor" whether or not the instructor is acting as PIC.
I'm not sure where people get the idea that a CFI always has to be PIC when providing training.
[ QUOTE ]
The instructor gets to log PIC because he/she IS PIC.
[/ QUOTE ]I'm not sure what you mean.
A private and above pilot who is doing the flying gets to log PIC because she is "the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated" whether or not the pilot is acting as PIC
A CFI who is giving training in flight gets to log PIC because "[a]n authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor" whether or not the instructor is acting as PIC.
I'm not sure where people get the idea that a CFI always has to be PIC when providing training.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Re: ? for Active CFII\'s
[ QUOTE ]
As a current IFR student, I am logging my simulated IMC time as PIC. My instructor is not the PIC, unless we are in Actual conditions. Does he actually get to log his non-IMC time as PIC, eventhough he is not flying the plane?
[/ QUOTE ]Let's try to simplify this. It depends on the situation.
Here's the scenario. You are a private pilot. The "aircraft ratings" section of your pilot certificate says "Airplane Single Engine Land". You are training for you instrument rating in a simple single engine land airplane.
Now, let's separate the logging from the acting issue.
Logging:
You get to log PIC all of the time you are flying the airplane. Doesn't matter whether the conditions are VFR, simulated instrument, or actual instrument. That's because FAR 61.51 says "A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time ... for that flight time during which that person ... Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated"
The CFI gets to log PIC time, because 61.51 also says "An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor."
Acting:
If the training is taking place on an IFR flight plan and/or actual instrument conditions, your CFI has to be acting as PIC. That's because you must be instrument rated and current to act as PIC on an instrument flight plan or in IMC.
If the flight is taking place under visual flight rules, who is acting as PIC is a matter of agreement between you and the CFI. That agreement may be expressed or just tacit, but it's there.
******************************
Keep them straight
Acting As PIC = duty, authority, responsibility
Logging PIC Time = putting numbers in columns on a piece of paper
Different purposes, different concepts, different rules.
[ QUOTE ]
As a current IFR student, I am logging my simulated IMC time as PIC. My instructor is not the PIC, unless we are in Actual conditions. Does he actually get to log his non-IMC time as PIC, eventhough he is not flying the plane?
[/ QUOTE ]Let's try to simplify this. It depends on the situation.
Here's the scenario. You are a private pilot. The "aircraft ratings" section of your pilot certificate says "Airplane Single Engine Land". You are training for you instrument rating in a simple single engine land airplane.
Now, let's separate the logging from the acting issue.
Logging:
You get to log PIC all of the time you are flying the airplane. Doesn't matter whether the conditions are VFR, simulated instrument, or actual instrument. That's because FAR 61.51 says "A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time ... for that flight time during which that person ... Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated"
The CFI gets to log PIC time, because 61.51 also says "An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor."
Acting:
If the training is taking place on an IFR flight plan and/or actual instrument conditions, your CFI has to be acting as PIC. That's because you must be instrument rated and current to act as PIC on an instrument flight plan or in IMC.
If the flight is taking place under visual flight rules, who is acting as PIC is a matter of agreement between you and the CFI. That agreement may be expressed or just tacit, but it's there.
******************************
Keep them straight
Acting As PIC = duty, authority, responsibility
Logging PIC Time = putting numbers in columns on a piece of paper
Different purposes, different concepts, different rules.
EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
Re: ? for Active CFII\'s
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure where people get the idea that a CFI always has to be PIC when providing training.
[/ QUOTE ]
Where I used to work it was company policy.
From a liability standpoint the instructor may as well always be PIC anyways, because if something happens they're the one who's going to answer for it.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure where people get the idea that a CFI always has to be PIC when providing training.
[/ QUOTE ]
Where I used to work it was company policy.
From a liability standpoint the instructor may as well always be PIC anyways, because if something happens they're the one who's going to answer for it.
Re: ? for Active CFII\'s
[ QUOTE ]
Logging:
You get to log PIC all of the time you are flying the airplane. Doesn't matter whether the conditions are VFR, simulated instrument, or actual instrument. That's because FAR 61.51 says "A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time ... for that flight time during which that person ... Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated"
The CFI gets to log PIC time, because 61.51 also says "An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor."
[/ QUOTE ]
Understood !
[ QUOTE ]
Acting:
If the training is taking place on an IFR flight plan and/or actual instrument conditions, your CFI has to be acting as PIC. That's because you must be instrument rated and current to act as PIC on an instrument flight plan or in IMC.
So...on my long XC, even if it is VFR, my CFII has to be PIC because of the flight plan. Because I am the sole manipulator of the controls, I would still be able to log PIC?
If the flight is taking place under visual flight rules, who is acting as PIC is a matter of agreement between you and the CFI. That agreement may be expressed or just tacit, but it's there.
That has been my experience. There is that unspoken agreement, but in the event it was needed, my CFII could take the controls and assume PIC if need be for safety.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the references in your response. Makes things easier if their are any doubts. Being able to back up what you say makes it easier to understand.
[ QUOTE ]
Logging:
You get to log PIC all of the time you are flying the airplane. Doesn't matter whether the conditions are VFR, simulated instrument, or actual instrument. That's because FAR 61.51 says "A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time ... for that flight time during which that person ... Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated"
The CFI gets to log PIC time, because 61.51 also says "An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor."
[/ QUOTE ]
Understood !
[ QUOTE ]
Acting:
If the training is taking place on an IFR flight plan and/or actual instrument conditions, your CFI has to be acting as PIC. That's because you must be instrument rated and current to act as PIC on an instrument flight plan or in IMC.
So...on my long XC, even if it is VFR, my CFII has to be PIC because of the flight plan. Because I am the sole manipulator of the controls, I would still be able to log PIC?
If the flight is taking place under visual flight rules, who is acting as PIC is a matter of agreement between you and the CFI. That agreement may be expressed or just tacit, but it's there.
That has been my experience. There is that unspoken agreement, but in the event it was needed, my CFII could take the controls and assume PIC if need be for safety.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the references in your response. Makes things easier if their are any doubts. Being able to back up what you say makes it easier to understand.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Re: ? for Active CFII\'s
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure where people get the idea that a CFI always has to be PIC when providing training.
[/ QUOTE ]
Where I used to work it was company policy.
[/ QUOTE ]That's company policy, not a rule
[ QUOTE ]
From a liability standpoint the instructor may as well always be PIC anyways, because if something happens they're the one who's going to answer for it.
[/ QUOTE ]I've never any seen real cases to convince me that this is as true as people seem to =think= it is.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure where people get the idea that a CFI always has to be PIC when providing training.
[/ QUOTE ]
Where I used to work it was company policy.
[/ QUOTE ]That's company policy, not a rule
[ QUOTE ]
From a liability standpoint the instructor may as well always be PIC anyways, because if something happens they're the one who's going to answer for it.
[/ QUOTE ]I've never any seen real cases to convince me that this is as true as people seem to =think= it is.
EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
Re: ? for Active CFII\'s
[ QUOTE ]
I've never any seen real cases to convince me that this is as true as people seem to =think= it is.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll do some digging. I attended an FAA Seminar for CFI's over the summer and one of the topics was CFI Liability. Somewhere I have a couple of examples.
And in regards to the acting PIC thing, I was just making an observation. I know of several FBO's/schools where that is the policy. I realize full well that its not a "rule" in the FAA's eyes.
[ QUOTE ]
I've never any seen real cases to convince me that this is as true as people seem to =think= it is.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll do some digging. I attended an FAA Seminar for CFI's over the summer and one of the topics was CFI Liability. Somewhere I have a couple of examples.
And in regards to the acting PIC thing, I was just making an observation. I know of several FBO's/schools where that is the policy. I realize full well that its not a "rule" in the FAA's eyes.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Re: ? for Active CFII\'s
[ QUOTE ]
So...on my long XC, even if it is VFR, my CFII has to be PIC because of the flight plan. Because I am the sole manipulator of the controls, I would still be able to log PIC?
[/ QUOTE ]Exactly!
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the references in your response. Makes things easier if their are any doubts. Being able to back up what you say makes it easier to understand.
[/ QUOTE ]You're welcome. But, while the backup is nice, it's actually =always= treating logging and acting as completely different creatures that helps make it understandable.
[ QUOTE ]
So...on my long XC, even if it is VFR, my CFII has to be PIC because of the flight plan. Because I am the sole manipulator of the controls, I would still be able to log PIC?
[/ QUOTE ]Exactly!
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the references in your response. Makes things easier if their are any doubts. Being able to back up what you say makes it easier to understand.
[/ QUOTE ]You're welcome. But, while the backup is nice, it's actually =always= treating logging and acting as completely different creatures that helps make it understandable.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Re: ? for Active CFII\'s
[ QUOTE ]
And in regards to the acting PIC thing, I was just making an observation. I know of several FBO's/schools where that is the policy. I realize full well that its not a "rule" in the FAA's eyes.
[/ QUOTE ]And the FBO policy that the CFI is always PIC is probably nearly universal.
On the other hand, it is fairly common for CFIs who teach in pilots' personally owned airplanes to =not= act as PIC unless they are providing the type of training where they must.
[ QUOTE ]
And in regards to the acting PIC thing, I was just making an observation. I know of several FBO's/schools where that is the policy. I realize full well that its not a "rule" in the FAA's eyes.
[/ QUOTE ]And the FBO policy that the CFI is always PIC is probably nearly universal.
On the other hand, it is fairly common for CFIs who teach in pilots' personally owned airplanes to =not= act as PIC unless they are providing the type of training where they must.
PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
Re: ? for Active CFII\'s
It doesnt seem logical to you people that since you are the instructor.. the one "teaching"...that you are not ACTING in command? The buck stops with you when you are teaching, because what that student is doing is responses to your commands and instructions.
The student logs the PIC time because they are stick flying the airplane and pressing all the neat little buttons. They are commanding the stick, but not commander of the airplane, whether it is there's or not. I think if you are a CFI and do not follow this train of thought, you need to rethink some things. When something goes wrong, the blame can easily be directed at you...more easily. When there is gray area of who is in command, problems happen and are aggrevated much more easily.
It doesnt seem logical to you people that since you are the instructor.. the one "teaching"...that you are not ACTING in command? The buck stops with you when you are teaching, because what that student is doing is responses to your commands and instructions.
The student logs the PIC time because they are stick flying the airplane and pressing all the neat little buttons. They are commanding the stick, but not commander of the airplane, whether it is there's or not. I think if you are a CFI and do not follow this train of thought, you need to rethink some things. When something goes wrong, the blame can easily be directed at you...more easily. When there is gray area of who is in command, problems happen and are aggrevated much more easily.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Re: ? for Active CFII\'s
[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't seem logical to you people that since you are the instructor.. the one "teaching"...that you are not ACTING in command?
[/ QUOTE ]In general, yes. But not necessarily. We're not necessarily talking primary or initial instrument training here.
Many people who own their own airplanes take the simple but understandable view that "It's my airplane. I am PIC when I am in it. I don't care if Chuck Yeager is in the other seat!"
And what of the CFI who simple cannot act as PC? My favorite example is a CFI whose medical became invalid 5 years earlier giving a BFR or some other recurrent to a pilot.
And sometimes training involves passing on knowledge, not just basic skill. We do mountain training around here. When we do them in a pilot's own airplane, many of us have a standing policy that the airplane owner is PIC. After all, that pilot may come out for training in an airplane with which I am not at all familiar. I will probably be willing to do the training if I am satisfied that the airplane's performance meed certain safety parameters, but no way am I acting as PIC in an airplane that I don't know (and which void the owners insurance if I am PIC in it.)
[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't seem logical to you people that since you are the instructor.. the one "teaching"...that you are not ACTING in command?
[/ QUOTE ]In general, yes. But not necessarily. We're not necessarily talking primary or initial instrument training here.
Many people who own their own airplanes take the simple but understandable view that "It's my airplane. I am PIC when I am in it. I don't care if Chuck Yeager is in the other seat!"
And what of the CFI who simple cannot act as PC? My favorite example is a CFI whose medical became invalid 5 years earlier giving a BFR or some other recurrent to a pilot.
And sometimes training involves passing on knowledge, not just basic skill. We do mountain training around here. When we do them in a pilot's own airplane, many of us have a standing policy that the airplane owner is PIC. After all, that pilot may come out for training in an airplane with which I am not at all familiar. I will probably be willing to do the training if I am satisfied that the airplane's performance meed certain safety parameters, but no way am I acting as PIC in an airplane that I don't know (and which void the owners insurance if I am PIC in it.)
sixpack
New Member
Re: ? for Active CFII\'s
PIC is an over-used term in the FARs. It means different things in different paragraphs.<ul type="square"> [*]PIC can be Pilot in Authority
[*]PIC can be Pilot physically controlling the Airplane
[/list] When an instructor gives "Dual Given", he is the pilot in authority. No doubt. He has the last and final say for all decisions during the flight, and is held accountable even if he delagates some decisions.
When a student receiving dual flies an airplane that he/she is rated in, he/she logs PIC because he/she is physically controlling the airplane. If you are receiving DUAL GIVEN, you are not the pilot in authority.
By the way...[ QUOTE ]
Many people who own their own airplanes take the simple but understandable view that "It's my airplane. I am PIC when I am in it. I don't care if Chuck Yeager is in the other seat!"
[/ QUOTE ] I know the guy who checked out Chuck Yeager in a C152. His name is Joe, and yes, Joe did log the flight as PIC.
PIC is an over-used term in the FARs. It means different things in different paragraphs.<ul type="square"> [*]PIC can be Pilot in Authority
[*]PIC can be Pilot physically controlling the Airplane
[/list] When an instructor gives "Dual Given", he is the pilot in authority. No doubt. He has the last and final say for all decisions during the flight, and is held accountable even if he delagates some decisions.
When a student receiving dual flies an airplane that he/she is rated in, he/she logs PIC because he/she is physically controlling the airplane. If you are receiving DUAL GIVEN, you are not the pilot in authority.
By the way...[ QUOTE ]
Many people who own their own airplanes take the simple but understandable view that "It's my airplane. I am PIC when I am in it. I don't care if Chuck Yeager is in the other seat!"
[/ QUOTE ] I know the guy who checked out Chuck Yeager in a C152. His name is Joe, and yes, Joe did log the flight as PIC.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Re: ? for Active CFII\'s
[ QUOTE ]
When an instructor gives "Dual Given", he is the pilot in authority. No doubt.
[/ QUOTE ]What if the CFI has no medical and is therefore not permitted to be the pilot with final authority over the conduct of the flight?
[ QUOTE ]
I know the guy who checked out Chuck Yeager in a C152. His name is Joe, and yes, Joe did log the flight as PIC.
[/ QUOTE ]Of course he did. Why wouldn't he? If Joe didn't have a medical certificate, wasn't current to carry passengers, and hadn't had a flight review (or equivalent) for the past 15 years, he =still= would have been able to log it as PIC. (I am assuming, of course, that Chuck was qualified to act as PIC in a single engine airplane)
[ QUOTE ]
When an instructor gives "Dual Given", he is the pilot in authority. No doubt.
[/ QUOTE ]What if the CFI has no medical and is therefore not permitted to be the pilot with final authority over the conduct of the flight?
[ QUOTE ]
I know the guy who checked out Chuck Yeager in a C152. His name is Joe, and yes, Joe did log the flight as PIC.
[/ QUOTE ]Of course he did. Why wouldn't he? If Joe didn't have a medical certificate, wasn't current to carry passengers, and hadn't had a flight review (or equivalent) for the past 15 years, he =still= would have been able to log it as PIC. (I am assuming, of course, that Chuck was qualified to act as PIC in a single engine airplane)
sixpack
New Member
Re: ? for Active CFII\'s
[ QUOTE ]
What if the CFI has no medical and is therefore not permitted to be the pilot with final authority over the conduct of the flight?
[/ QUOTE ] You're right...in this case the student would have to be the PIC to make the flight legal. If something went wrong, I'd bet they'd both have to take responsibility.
So if an instructor gives 100hours instruction with a valid medical, and 100hours instruction with an invalid medical, is there any difference in the way he logs hours?
[ QUOTE ]
What if the CFI has no medical and is therefore not permitted to be the pilot with final authority over the conduct of the flight?
[/ QUOTE ] You're right...in this case the student would have to be the PIC to make the flight legal. If something went wrong, I'd bet they'd both have to take responsibility.
So if an instructor gives 100hours instruction with a valid medical, and 100hours instruction with an invalid medical, is there any difference in the way he logs hours?
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Re: ? for Active CFII\'s
[ QUOTE ]
You're right...in this case the student would have to be the PIC to make the flight legal. If something went wrong, I'd bet they'd both have to take responsibility.
[/ QUOTE ]True. A lot of us tend to make the mistake that the (acting) PIC's responsibility is exclusive. PIC or not, everyone gets to take responsibility for his or her own screw-ups.
[ QUOTE ]
So if an instructor gives 100hours instruction with a valid medical, and 100hours instruction with an invalid medical, is there any difference in the way he logs hours?
[/ QUOTE ]Not that I can see.
[ QUOTE ]
You're right...in this case the student would have to be the PIC to make the flight legal. If something went wrong, I'd bet they'd both have to take responsibility.
[/ QUOTE ]True. A lot of us tend to make the mistake that the (acting) PIC's responsibility is exclusive. PIC or not, everyone gets to take responsibility for his or her own screw-ups.
[ QUOTE ]
So if an instructor gives 100hours instruction with a valid medical, and 100hours instruction with an invalid medical, is there any difference in the way he logs hours?
[/ QUOTE ]Not that I can see.
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