FlyNYON knew of safety concerns before fatal doors-off flight

z987k said:
...It's one thing to make a mistake, or not know something. To design a bridge or ride that maybe you didn't do your due diligence, and someone was injured or hurt.
It's a very different thing to be told there is an issue, know there is an issue that is putting lives at risk and actively quash all concerns related to it just because money. ...
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Willful incompetence should not be a 'Get Out of Jail' card. If you are doing a job that has potentially-damaging consequences, then you have an moral and legal obligation to avoid errors. Doctors count the sponges in surgery to make sure they don't leave any behind inside the patient's body.

I certainly agree with z-k that knowing disregard is worse, but good intentions alone aren't enough to excuse mistakes that can, or do, have serious consequences.
 
FloridaLarry said:
Willful incompetence should not be a 'Get Out of Jail' card. If you are doing a job that has potentially-damaging consequences, then you have an moral and legal obligation to avoid errors. Doctors count the sponges in surgery to make sure they don't leave any behind inside the patient's body.

I certainly agree with z-k that knowing disregard is worse, but good intentions alone aren't enough to excuse mistakes that can, or do, have serious consequences.
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The prosecution of these guys behind that water slide that decapitated that boy will hopefully put a bit more fear into people with this type of thing.
 
This place needs to go out of business. Where's the social media storm for that?? Killed 5 people to save a few bucks. o_O
 
USMCmech said:
Hello, this is America. Have you been here long?


To be fair, adequately training civilians how to escape a helo in the water costs more than a "few bucks".

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Yeah I do understand that. I fly plenty of tourists and am aware of the general lack of capability. This sort of operation isn't a good idea at all, regardless of harness. Most people would probably have enough trouble releasing a standard lap belt and egressing.

I was referencing the fact that they were using construction harnesses with a very difficult to access attachment point. That certainly doesn't help their chance of escape. Money over safety.
 
KKochan said:
I was referencing the fact that they were using construction harnesses with a very difficult to access attachment point. That certainly doesn't help their chance of escape. Money over safety.
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Oh, I agree completely.

OTOH, there is an argument that can be made that it's better to protect civilians from themselves by securely harnessing passengers to the aircraft so they don't accidentally disconnect and fall out.

OTOH, this brings us back to our original point that maybe offering doors off flights to the general public is a bad idea.
 
USMCmech said:
Oh, I agree completely.

OTOH, there is an argument that can be made that it's better to protect civilians from themselves by securely harnessing passengers to the aircraft so they don't accidentally disconnect and fall out.

OTOH, this brings us back to our original point that maybe offering doors off flights to the general public is a bad idea.
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Thats the thing I was saying. The pax need to be harnessed in with a harness that can't be so simple to release that it can accidentaly be released. However, helo egress from a complex restraint device/system......especially emergency egress whether on land or in water......isn't something that can be briefed and taught in a 10 min safety brief to a layperson. Its something that takes extensive training and repetition to even be basically comfortable with, much less being second nature.
 
FloridaLarry said:
Willful incompetence should not be a 'Get Out of Jail' card. If you are doing a job that has potentially-damaging consequences, then you have an moral and legal obligation to avoid errors. Doctors count the sponges in surgery to make sure they don't leave any behind inside the patient's body.

I certainly agree with z-k that knowing disregard is worse, but good intentions alone aren't enough to excuse mistakes that can, or do, have serious consequences.
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I want to avoid criminally prosecuting people for things like pilot error. We know as soon as we do that the whole safety culture is out the window and way way more people will die.
 
It seems to me that this could be easily solved by handing the moro...er passengers an indemnity to sign. "I understand that if I unhook the harness and fall out of the helicopter it is my own dumb fault and I hereby hold Scumbag Helitours Inc. blameless for my early, stupid demise".
 
MikeD said:
Thats the thing I was saying. The pax need to be harnessed in with a harness that can't be so simple to release that it can accidentaly be released. However, helo egress from a complex restraint device/system......especially emergency egress whether on land or in water......isn't something that can be briefed and taught in a 10 min safety brief to a layperson. Its something that takes extensive training and repetition to even be basically comfortable with, much less being second nature.
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Then isn't the solution better cutting tools. The helicopter didn't go inverted that quickly.
 
I_Money said:
Then isn't the solution better cutting tools. The helicopter didn't go inverted that quickly.
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Have you flown tourons I mean tourists before? When I was doing a lot of it you’d have someone every. Dang. Flight that tried to get out of the airplane after a normal flight without releasing their seatbelt. IMHO anything that requires a cutting tool to escape is right out.
 
I_Money said:
Then isn't the solution better cutting tools. The helicopter didn't go inverted that quickly.
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It would be, but again that isnt second nature to pax who have been given nothing more than a 10 minute fam that they probably werent paying 100% attention to anyway. The training to even use a cutting device has to be such that its automatic and overrides any kind of shock or panic. Again, not something that can be trained to a layperson in a few minutes.
 
z987k said:
I want to avoid criminally prosecuting people for things like pilot error. We know as soon as we do that the whole safety culture is out the window and way way more people will die.
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I do agree with this. I was talking about really big errors that any sane pilot wouldn't do. Like retracting the gear while at the gate (as if one could).

But it's easy to slide into the kind of cumulative mis-judgements that do cause accidents. Eg: floating a landing, using up too much of a short runway in icing conditions and with known problems on your braking and thrust reversers, along with being so busy with all the rest that you forget to extend the gear, etc. There simply isn't a one-size-fits-all guaranteed solution for this. Rely on civil (or criminal) juries? Not exactly fail safe! The trouble with the yardstick What would a reasonable person do in these circumstances? assumes that most of us are reasonable people. There are too many exceptions, and I think we'd both agree that stress reduces our ability to deal with all problems logically.

On a big airline level, the present system usually works pretty well. Eg: The SWA CA who took control from the FO moments before touchdown at LGA, and bent the bird (I believe into the desert). She was, rightly, fired for this sort of egregious behavior. The smaller the operation, the less rigorous the thinking sometimes is.

Perhaps the safety culture is not as fragile as one might think (but I grant you there are places where it is!) We can't throw out any & all accountability, because that would also get people killed.
 
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