flying with a rude copilot
- Thread starter Mavmb
- Start date
DeltaAlphaNovember
Well-Known Member
I have had my share of obnoxious CA's when I was an FO. And as a CA I have had a few obnoxious FO's. I encourage guys/gals to speak up and say something. But do it in a respectful way. There have been a few that have told me how to do my job. Needless to say, it was a less than pleasant moment after the fact.
As a CA once told me, you can tell me to eff off, but do it politely.
As a CA once told me, you can tell me to eff off, but do it politely.
PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
You've got to be a bit nutty to like and stay on the 737 or MD-88.
The only guys I flew with that really liked the 737 were the ones who had flown it their whole career (or only that and the 88).
Cptnchia
Dissatisfied Customer
No. Well, it depends. If we're talking technique, I would modify to their desired way, since it really doesn't matter with technique. With a procedure, however, I did it by the book. Went so far as to tell a captain that if the airplane had his name on the side, and he was signing the paycheck, I'd be happy to do " his procedure," but since it said SJI on the side, and on the orange envelope, I was doing it how the book said to and he could shut his pie hole.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
But where is that line drawn?
For example we have a route verification in which the pilot who did not load the box reads through the box, while the pilot who loaded the box checks off waypoints in the flight plan. The FCOM says to read through until the first fix of the STAR and at that point you're done. So I did that, but the CA is like, continue, continue. I innocently asked if there was a recent change? and he responds "just do it." So I do and when done, he says he is conservative. And I just said ok, but the SOP is to the first fix of the STAR. I let it go. But for emphasis, what I should have said is, "I don't mind doing it your way, just know though, that it is non-standard."
PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
DL manuals are written with the basic required procedures. Those have to be complied with, for example clearance verification is a specific procedure. If you add in some things that make it more robust, that is technique. Techniques are not enforced. We suggest techniques on how to make your life easier in the schoolhouse, but they are suggestions and that alone. (like tagging on missed approach altitude set at the 1000 foot call before landing)
If you want to go above and beyond the basic requirements of the clearance, altitude, speeds, and say the xponder code or read the whole route, that is considered technique and is fine. Just the basic is required as that is the procedure.
If you want to go above and beyond the basic requirements of the clearance, altitude, speeds, and say the xponder code or read the whole route, that is considered technique and is fine. Just the basic is required as that is the procedure.
ian
Well-Known Member
i'd argue that you were in the wrong here. If he's wanting you to do LESS than required, sure....but if he's asking you to do more, who cares, he's conservative. You are the FO, shut up and color....when you upgrade, then you can make the rules. If you said "just know that is non-standard" I'd consider you quite the doucher
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
I never said that last part. But keep in mind, the next guy you fly with when you read beyond the first STAR fix then cuts you off saying "whoa that's enough don't you know?" and then it seems you (the FO) didn't know SOP. Being a chameleon isn't too hard per say, which is why my default is always exactly what is in the FCOM and anything above, the CA will have to prompt it because then it is pure technique. My only point is the distinction between what is required FCOM and what is a personal technique (not stated FCOM, but done nonetheless). I don't have a problem doing a technique, so as long as the guy knows it's technique.
Besides, why read the STAR on the ground, when you won't even touch it until hours later on arrival, and even then it's handled per the approach briefing which is before TOD? This is why the SOP has you stop at the start of the STAR for the route verification which is done at the gate of departure airport.
PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
This is why the difference between procedure and techniques is so heavily emphasized at DL.
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
What's DL's procedure about hand flying?
Also another cockpit question, in general. What if the FO wants to hand fly to "___", but the Captain says no. Does Captain authority win in that situation?
JustinS
Well-Known Member
So much truth in this thread. The undertone of personal dynamics in the cockpit can really make or break a good trip. You can have a crappy trip with an awesome crew, and it's an awesome trip. You can have a sweet trip you've been looking forward to flying be with a crappy crew, and the trip is crap.
Anytime I hear "I'm super laid back," "I'm very by the book," or "I'm not one of those guys that you have to worry about XYZ." More often then not are all the things opposite of what they say to varying degrees.... Sometimes they're right, but most of the time not. After I hear a captain say those types of things I always give them the benefit of the doubt, and I'm almost always dissapointed. The ones who just do their job and don't make those types of statements tend to be more like those supporting statements. I have no idea WHY, but it's just too true to ignore.
Anytime I hear "I'm super laid back," "I'm very by the book," or "I'm not one of those guys that you have to worry about XYZ." More often then not are all the things opposite of what they say to varying degrees.... Sometimes they're right, but most of the time not. After I hear a captain say those types of things I always give them the benefit of the doubt, and I'm almost always dissapointed. The ones who just do their job and don't make those types of statements tend to be more like those supporting statements. I have no idea WHY, but it's just too true to ignore.
Last edited:
JustinS
Well-Known Member
Honestly I cater to captain's technique because it usually makes the flight deck more easy going. If their technique may seem a little over the top or bothersome so what. If you don't just be a chameleon and resist the urge to roll your eyes and go "but the SOP says we are ONLY required to do XYZ." In this particular case where SOP is less required than technique. You're probably going to have a bad time... It's just not worth it. Instead you eat it and work with it. I have several goals when I fly. Don't break FARs, follow the SOP, don't end up on the news, don't do anything unsafe, and don't piss off the captain (unless pissing off the captain is what it takes to accomplish the first 4 goals.)
No where in the SOP that I'm aware does it say "demonstrate good airmanship." However, any aviatior worth his salt knows that it doesn't need to be written in a book to tell them good airmanship is needed. This is where the water gets muddied. Some captains have extremely conservative or outrageous TECHNIQUES because that's what they feel they need in order to accomplish good airmanship. Each Captain is different. You just deal with that. Now there is a point where if the Captain has less technique than SOP requires, or is less than my personal comfort level I won't be afraid to speak up. I am very fortunate I fly with very professional crews who really care about good airmanship and doing a good job so me having to stick out my neck to get a point across is rare, and often times when I do speak up the captain most of the time was unaware or forgot and I am often thanked for saying something that kept us away from not accomplishing my goals I stated above.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
It should go without saying that a 121 crew is "by the book", but anyone who has flown the line more than a few trips at any airline will find that there are "those captains" who do it their way. I saw one while jumpseating at a mainline that left me speechless and the FO was obviously befuddled as to what he was suppose to do as the captain was operating as if it were a single pilot airplane. I should have known that cockpit would be interesting as the door was close when I got on the airplane. After waiting 5 minutes the head FA called the captain to let him know I was there and he jumped her drawers. I could hear him yelling at her through the door. I came very close to turning around and getting off.
So yeah, I brief the FO and let him/her know I'm pretty much by the book. First it lets them know, second I emphasize that if I'm not doing something the way the company wants they need to speak up- and I emphasize that, especially to newer pilots. I'm not perfect. I may have missed a change, may miss something, may forget something. There WILL be mistakes on every leg, the trick is to catch them, minimize them, and not let them result in a UAS (Undesired Aircraft State). As I tell them, 1. Safety 2. Keeping our jobs/tickets 3. Customer service 4. Make the company money 5. Have fun/make the commute flight home.
So yeah, I brief the FO and let him/her know I'm pretty much by the book. First it lets them know, second I emphasize that if I'm not doing something the way the company wants they need to speak up- and I emphasize that, especially to newer pilots. I'm not perfect. I may have missed a change, may miss something, may forget something. There WILL be mistakes on every leg, the trick is to catch them, minimize them, and not let them result in a UAS (Undesired Aircraft State). As I tell them, 1. Safety 2. Keeping our jobs/tickets 3. Customer service 4. Make the company money 5. Have fun/make the commute flight home.
Last edited:
Burrito
Position And Hold My Beer
Why would... why would someone remotely consider doing something like this at Atlanta...? I mean, an outstation with 1 strip, 4 taxiways, a jetway and a pretzel shop is one place for pranks. And that's if you all get along! -- But uhh....
trafficinsight
Well-Known Member
I had a captain do a similar thing to me when I was even newer than I am now, without going into pages of detail, I guess, he intentionally failed to clue me in when I didn't make the connection as to how a certain CAS message would affect our landing approach. Luckily I recognized it late in the game and was able to adjust, which only pissed him off more.
I was confused by it at the time but later I realized that he basically wanted me to screw up. It really pissed me off at that point because not recognizing it was a possible "bent metal" scenario. How is that lesson good for anyone?
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Oh lord no.
The only person who would be taken affront by a probationary pilot speaking up on an operational concern would be a extremely weak assed captain.
Speak up, with passion. If I don't concur, we will look it up and see what the boss-man says to do in that scenario.
But if you give me a "Well, back at Endeavor we would do", you're buying all the beers that evening. #TrueStory
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
Why would... why would someone remotely consider doing something like this at Atlanta...? I mean, an outstation with 1 strip, 4 taxiways, a jetway and a pretzel shop is one place for pranks. And that's if you all get along! -- But uhh....
She was- or from what I've heard still is- "special". I flew with her all month and this was just one of many events.
Last edited:
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
And then there was this time at band camp...
I can assure you that if that happened to me, it would lead to a "keep your seat, leave the cockpit door closed, let's have a chat" conversation after blocking in.
And I've had that.
It's kind of awkward, I felt like poop afterward, but after that everything went swimmingly.