flying with a rude copilot

[Mark815]

Any Capt who yells at or intimidates his F/O is a fool. You on your own after that. Left seat can be a lonely and scary place. Better hope you don't mess anything up....

Yep. Had a CA once board the aircraft and proceed to tell me "This is how it's going to be done" and then went on and on about how I wasn't allowed to touch the flight control panel even if the A/P was off because he knows what he wants. Also tried to tell me how to talk on the radio, as in "You need to say EXACTLY the words I say, and my words only".

He yelled at everyone he came across. Yelled at the FAs, the van drivers, even gave attitude to other crews while swapping aircraft.

 

[Tld]

Yep. Had a CA once board the aircraft and proceed to tell me "This is how it's going to be done" and then went on and on about how I wasn't allowed to touch the flight control panel even if the A/P was off because he knows what he wants...

"Hey, I'm going to run up and grab a coffee..."

"Why are you taking your bag with you?"

Bye Felicia.

 

[pilotmec]

You have these type JackWagons in Part 91 and 135 also.
Not much conversation from me if I get stuck with one. I'll do my job and be safe but you can bet your last dollar you will get nothing more from me.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Yep. Had a CA once board the aircraft and proceed to tell me "This is how it's going to be done" and then went on and on about how I wasn't allowed to touch the flight control panel even if the A/P was off because he knows what he wants. Also tried to tell me how to talk on the radio, as in "You need to say EXACTLY the words I say, and my words only".

He yelled at everyone he came across. Yelled at the FAs, the van drivers, even gave attitude to other crews while swapping aircraft.

I think I know that guy. I also seem to remember I removed myself from that pairing, too. SEEYUH

 

[Autothrust Blue]

"Hey, I'm going to run up and grab a coffee..."

"Why are you taking your bag with you?"

Bye Felicia.

"Why are you so quiet?"
"Because I can't think of anything non-operational to say, sir."

 

[Cptnchia]

Yep. Had a CA once board the aircraft and proceed to tell me "This is how it's going to be done" and then went on and on about how I wasn't allowed to touch the flight control panel even if the A/P was off because he knows what he wants. Also tried to tell me how to talk on the radio, as in "You need to say EXACTLY the words I say, and my words only".

He yelled at everyone he came across. Yelled at the FAs, the van drivers, even gave attitude to other crews while swapping aircraft.

And you flew more than one leg with this tool? OK, two legs to at least get back to base?

 

[Nark]

@poser765
So there is was in the sim with the same guy. Second thing he does after dousing the controls with baby wipes is pull out a Gillian's island style hat. The same you see glider pilots wear.

In the sim.

During a checkride.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

@poser765
So there is was in the sim with the same guy. Second thing he does after dousing the controls with baby wipes is pull out a Gillian's island style hat. The same you see glider pilots wear.

In the sim.

During a checkride.

something, something, train the way you fly....

 

[NC-Sean]

There are definitely some clueless people out there. Like I used to tell my old boss:

If you run into an • first thing in the morning, you've just met an •. If you run into • all day long, well, then you're the •.

 

[poser765]

@poser765
So there is was in the sim with the same guy. Second thing he does after dousing the controls with baby wipes is pull out a Gillian's island style hat. The same you see glider pilots wear.

In the sim.

During a checkride.

Oh man, don't think I could have kept a straight face. I think I am going to start insisting I do my sim training topless. You know, because that's how I fly on the line.

 

[STS-41B]

I'd love to see if his attitude is any different when being line-checked

 

[Vyse]

Hmm, you prior S5? You talking a bout the germaphobe who would carry his bags through the terminal instead of rolling them and would lose it when someone dared put their grubby hands on his luggage?

I was on the YX side. This guy's reasoning was that moving his bag interfered with his post-flight flow. I did hear about that other guy though!

 

[poser765]

I was on the YX side. This guy's reasoning was that moving his bag interfered with his post-flight flow. I did hear about that other guy though!

lol his post flight flow? How cute.

 

[Mark815]

And you flew more than one leg with this tool? OK, two legs to at least get back to base?

I was a brand spankin new airline FO. Not my first rodeo, but my first airline, so I didn't want to start my first couple weeks by crying to the chief yet. He tried to converse with me, and even complimented my flying, but he got nothing from me. After his initial rude introduction I told him that we'll be flying SOP since I'm still new to the aircraft, and that was that. He tried to do some weird non-sop stuff during the trip, but I stuck to the checklist and the book. No way anyone can argue and expect to win that.

Honestly after that I thought all airline captains were going to be huge dickheads, but I've been proved wrong. He's the only guy I've run across like that.

I think I know that guy. I also seem to remember I removed myself from that pairing, too. SEEYUH

He's well known in base I've been told. Funny enough this thread comes up though, because I actually fly with him this month for the first time since. Like I said above, I was brand new to the company back then, but if he acts that way again I'm outta there. Actually I hope he does act up because I need some extra time off

 

[Blackhawk]

In some ways it is easier as an FO once you figure out the game and how to be a chameleon. You can always put a captain on your no-fly list. As a captain it's probably a bad sign if you only fly with reserve FO's. I knew an FO who was looking at a long Key West overnight in open time. I looked at the super senior captain in the pairing and told him to think long and hard about it. "But it's a long Key West overnight? How bad can it be?" he responded.
When I next saw him he said never again. His first clue was during the intro when the captain (again, super senior), said "You know, you're the first non-reserve pilot I've flown with in months." Same captain was in AQP once with me when he complained about always flying with reserve FO's. An FO turned to him and said, "Maybe if you weren't such a _____ you wouldn't always fly with reserve FO's."

As a captain you have to figure out how to get the troublesome FO to work with you, how to be a team player without permitting a role reversal in the cockpit. In my years I've written up 3 FO's. Two were so bad they could not make the transition from turboprop to jet when the ATRs retired and were terminated. The third... well, she's now a captain and just as bad as a captain as she was as an FO from what I hear. Look up psycho female dog from hell in a dictionary and there's a picture of her. Never in my years of flying, military, 91, 135 and 121 have I ever come so close to a physical altercation with a crew member. This was when we flew lines instead of PBS so I was stuck with her all month. I begged ALPA and the chief pilot to pull one of us off the trip. Nothing. I've told stories about her, not mentioning her name (I usually don't like to mention names in stories), to FO's on long legs just because they are such crazy stories. Several times the FO's guessed who she was based upon incidents they had with her. I once mentioned her name to an ALPA professional standards rep and he responded that they probably get a call about her each month from FO's.

 

[JordanD]

In some ways it is easier as an FO once you figure out the game and how to be a chameleon. You can always put a captain on your no-fly list. As a captain it's probably a bad sign if you only fly with reserve FO's. I knew an FO who was looking at a long Key West overnight in open time. I looked at the super senior captain in the pairing and told him to think long and hard about it. "But it's a long Key West overnight? How bad can it be?" he responded.
When I next saw him he said never again. His first clue was during the intro when the captain (again, super senior), said "You know, you're the first non-reserve pilot I've flown with in months." Same captain was in AQP once with me when he complained about always flying with reserve FO's. An FO turned to him and said, "Maybe if you weren't such a _____ you wouldn't always fly with reserve FO's."

As a captain you have to figure out how to get the troublesome FO to work with you, how to be a team player without permitting a role reversal in the cockpit. In my years I've written up 3 FO's. Two were so bad they could not make the transition from turboprop to jet when the ATRs retired and were terminated. The third... well, she's now a captain and just as bad as a captain as she was as an FO from what I hear. Look up psycho female dog from hell in a dictionary and there's a picture of her. Never in my years of flying, military, 91, 135 and 121 have I ever come so close to a physical altercation with a crew member. This was when we flew lines instead of PBS so I was stuck with her all month. I begged ALPA and the chief pilot to pull one of us off the trip. Nothing. I've told stories about her, not mentioning her name (I usually don't like to mention names in stories), to FO's on long legs just because they are such crazy stories. Several times the FO's guessed who she was based upon incidents they had with her. I once mentioned her name to an ALPA professional standards rep and he responded that they probably get a call about her each month from FO's.

I don't even work at the same airline and I think I've heard stories about who you're taking about.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

In some ways it is easier as an FO once you figure out the game and how to be a chameleon. You can always put a captain on your no-fly list. As a captain it's probably a bad sign if you only fly with reserve FO's. I knew an FO who was looking at a long Key West overnight in open time. I looked at the super senior captain in the pairing and told him to think long and hard about it. "But it's a long Key West overnight? How bad can it be?" he responded.
When I next saw him he said never again. His first clue was during the intro when the captain (again, super senior), said "You know, you're the first non-reserve pilot I've flown with in months." Same captain was in AQP once with me when he complained about always flying with reserve FO's. An FO turned to him and said, "Maybe if you weren't such a _____ you wouldn't always fly with reserve FO's."

As a captain you have to figure out how to get the troublesome FO to work with you, how to be a team player without permitting a role reversal in the cockpit. In my years I've written up 3 FO's. Two were so bad they could not make the transition from turboprop to jet when the ATRs retired and were terminated. The third... well, she's now a captain and just as bad as a captain as she was as an FO from what I hear. Look up psycho female dog from hell in a dictionary and there's a picture of her. Never in my years of flying, military, 91, 135 and 121 have I ever come so close to a physical altercation with a crew member. This was when we flew lines instead of PBS so I was stuck with her all month. I begged ALPA and the chief pilot to pull one of us off the trip. Nothing. I've told stories about her, not mentioning her name (I usually don't like to mention names in stories), to FO's on long legs just because they are such crazy stories. Several times the FO's guessed who she was based upon incidents they had with her. I once mentioned her name to an ALPA professional standards rep and he responded that they probably get a call about her each month from FO's.

I don't know how it works in a crew environment, but these people are typically cowards. They micro-manage and have an over inflated sense of self, because they are masking a gaping chasm of insecurity. Anyone with control issues, is absolutely out of control themselves. So it's just easier for them to pick on you, than to deal with their own crap. They're posturing, and it's a huge power and intimidation thing. They're bullies, sociopaths. And if you give them power over you, because you're afraid to speak up for yourself, they'll ride you around like a bicycle. Until you stand up for yourself. A patient, an actual sociopath at my job, says, "if you're going to let me get away with it, I'm gonna take full advantage." First things first, never show fear to a bully/sociopath, and never ever be at their mercy.

I normally prefer a passive aggressive quip with them. Or if the gloves have to come off, they just do. Like my mom always said, some people you just have to get ghetto with, because it's all that they understand. But that might not be conducive to a crew environment. Not sure.

I kind of really worry about this, as a future entrant into a 121 environment. But then I deal with nurses at work. They can be just as bad, and type A, micro-managing, control freaks. If you don't IMMEDIATELY check the psycho, bi-polar nurse, when she comes for you. Who's nursing some serious man-hating tendencies, and goes home sad and alone to either five cats/dogs. You're immediately on her radar the whole shift, and she is literally checking EVERYTHING that you do for 12 hrs. Or having her sycophants secretly monitor you. Setting you up for failure. Or hoping to get you written up/fired. And writing secret e-mails to management about you, behind your back, while smiling in your face. It's literally true, when they say that nurses eat their young.

In the case of nursing, after you've checked the nurse thoroughly, and she, and in some cases he knows that you're not going to put up with their crap. They always leave you alone, and seek out far easier targets, and in some cases they even come to respect you more as a result. Of you letting them know that they must have you f'd up, because you're definitely not the one to f around with.

YMMV.

 

[Blackhawk]

I don't know how it works in a crew environment, but these people are typically cowards. They micro-manage and have an over inflated sense of self, because they are masking a gaping chasm of insecurity. Anyone with control issues, is absolutely out of control themselves. So it's just easier for them to pick on you, than to deal with their own crap. They're posturing, and it's a huge power and intimidation thing. They're bullies, sociopaths. And if you give them power over you, because you're afraid to speak up for yourself, they'll ride you around like a bicycle. Until you stand up for yourself. A patient, an actual sociopath at my job, says, "if you're going to let me get away with it, I'm gonna take full advantage." First things first, never show fear to a bully/sociopath, and never ever be at their mercy.

I normally prefer a passive aggressive quip with them. Or if the gloves have to come off, they just do. Like my mom always said, some people you just have to get ghetto with, because it's all that they understand. But that might not be conducive to a crew environment. Not sure.

I kind of really worry about this, as a future entrant into a 121 environment. But then I deal with nurses at work. They can be just as bad, and type A, micro-managing, control freaks. If you don't IMMEDIATELY check the psycho, bi-polar nurse, when she comes for you. Who's nursing some serious man-hating tendencies, and goes home sad and alone to either five cats/dogs. You're immediately on her radar the whole shift, and she is literally checking EVERYTHING that you do for 12 hrs. Or having her sycophants secretly monitor you. Setting you up for failure. Or hoping to get you written up/fired. And writing secret e-mails to management about you, behind your back, while smiling in your face. It's literally true, when they say that nurses eat their young.

In the case of nursing, after you've checked the nurse thoroughly, and she, and in some cases he knows that you're not going to put up with her crap. They always leave you alone, and seek out far easier targets, and in some cases they even come to respect you more as a result. Of you letting them know that they must have you f'd up, because you're definitely not the one to f around with.

YMMV.

The 800 lbs monkey in the room is how to deal with minorities who don't cut it. SWA 345 was an example, but I think every airline is struggling with this issue.

My wife use to be a pilot in the military and I taught military and civilian. Overall, I personally think women make better pilots than men do. I know, where not suppose to point out that men and women may have differences.
The only consistent negative issue I've seen in some women is a lack of confidence, just as I often see over confidence in men. I thought the former was easier to compensate for (through standard operating procedures, flows and profiles), and overcome and once they did so most of these women became very good pilots. The women pilots tend to be more "by the book" anyway, and I think this helps them. As an example, you very rarely hear about a female pilot who makes a smoking hole in the ground after buzzing her boyfriend's house. Just does not happen.

Unfortunately, as you said, one way some people deal with a lack of confidence is through belligerence and aggression. With this particular FO pushing back just led to an escalation on her part to the point where she was even trying to trip me up and cause me to make mistakes. As an example, flying into ATL we use to put the gate/ramp on a paper and put that paper on the center counsel for reference. After landing I was number 1 cleared across the inboard. When I looked down to see the ramp, the paper was gone. I asked, "Ramp 4?" No response. I asked again, "Are we going to Ramp 4?" No response. I could not stop as there were airplanes behind me on the inboard runway, so I turned to ramp 4. Right after I did so, ground asked where I was going, ramp 3 was the other way. The FO looked over at me with a smirk. "You knew we were suppose to go to ramp 3???" I asked. "Yeah, but YOUR the captain. You should know where you're going." I was not amused.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

The 800 lbs monkey in the room is how to deal with minorities who don't cut it. SWA 345 was an example, but I think every airline is struggling with this issue.

My wife use to be a pilot in the military and I taught military and civilian. Overall, I personally think women make better pilots than men do. I know, where not suppose to point out that men and women may have differences.
The only consistent negative issue I've seen in some women is a lack of confidence, just as I often see over confidence in men. I thought the former was easier to compensate for (through standard operating procedures, flows and profiles), and overcome and once they did so most of these women became very good pilots. The women pilots tend to be more "by the book" anyway, and I think this helps them. As an example, you very rarely hear about a female pilot who makes a smoking hole in the ground after buzzing her boyfriend's house. Just does not happen.

Unfortunately, as you said, one way some people deal with a lack of confidence is through belligerence and aggression. With this particular FO pushing back just led to an escalation on her part to the point where she was even trying to trip me up and cause me to make mistakes. As an example, flying into ATL we use to put the gate/ramp on a paper and put that paper on the center counsel for reference. After landing I was number 1 cleared across the inboard. When I looked down to see the ramp, the paper was gone. I asked, "Ramp 4?" No response. I asked again, "Are we going to Ramp 4?" No response. I could not stop as there were airplanes behind me on the inboard runway, so I turned to ramp 4. Right after I did so, ground asked where I was going, ramp 3 was the other way. The FO looked over at me with a smirk. "You knew we were suppose to go to ramp 3???" I asked. "Yeah, but YOUR the captain. You should know where you're going." I was not amused.

Again using my nursing example. I'll agree wholeheartedly that women seem to be very detailed orientated. At least the ones I work with are to a fault. They tend to be so logical and by the book that when stuff happens outside of the book they don't know what to do. Logic is good, but logic, plus commonsense is far better to have.

Lastly yeah that's why I said it might not be the best way to check someone in a crew environment, even maybe when they started it and you're just defending yourself. Because one or both people will probably just shut down, and dig in their heels leading to a toxic, unsafe environment. Like in the example that you listed, with the FO. Might just be better to pack up your bag, and say peace out, and call the Chief pilot.

I've been doing what I do for 10 years and it's like 90% women. They can be very catty, passive aggressive, backstabbers and non confrontational. My approach well works in the current environment. But I guess working with majority men in the future, I might really need to change tactics for a 121 environment.

 

[Blackhawk]

Unfortunately our CP at the time was weak and I think some within the company were afraid of a lawsuit from this FO. His response when I called him was "deal with it and mentor her."
My wife has seen the same in medicine. When she was a chief resident they had a female in her class have a nervous breakdown in the OR. This doctor had numerous issues and write ups from doctors. My wife's recommendation was that she had no business being in an OR and needed to find a different speciality. The resident had already sued her medical school when they tried to set her back, so the residency program director wouldn't terminate her. They only set her back six months. My wife was furious as she felt it put all female surgeons in a bad light. Sure enough, after graduating this doctor has not passed her boards after numerous attempts and has had her surgery privelages revoked more than once (hopefully perminantly this last time).