Flying VFR through the Lemoore MOA

It all depends on the MOA. I don't fly through the MOAs over the Sierra's and to the east, or northeast of Vegas. But I worked at NAS Lemoore for 5 years, and I fly through the Lemoore MOA's all the time, I have never seen much in there. The tall MOA's on the other hand I will try to avoid.
 
Inverted said:
It all depends on the MOA. I don't fly through the MOAs over the Sierra's and to the east, or northeast of Vegas. But I worked at NAS Lemoore for 5 years, and I fly through the Lemoore MOA's all the time, I have never seen much in there. The tall MOA's on the other hand I will try to avoid.
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Lemoore MOA is really only hazardous if someone is conducting BFM in A or D&E, but it only takes a little coordination to make everyone safer. As far as the MOA over the Sierras, or 2508 as it is know in the Navy, be careful. The Navy pilots call it "the wild west" because there is no exclusive use airspace and you never know what you will get, so you can imagine what it is like when there are guys out there without radars. Most of low level activity is around Owens lake bed and the road between it and Panimint valley, as well as all of Panimant Valley and Saline valley. Be careful if you fly to the nudist camp in Saline, it probably get buzzed several times a day and there is a dirt strip right next to it. The Eureka Dunes are pretty popular as well. Over the mountains, expect jets to maintain at least 3k above the park, so lower than that is fairly safe (other than the fact that it may be above 10k). Between China Lake and Edwards, it is pretty dangerous since the Superior Valley range is down there and you can expect quite a bit of jet traffic working CAS as far as 20 miles west of the range in a stack operating VFR while taking care or quite a bit of cockpit tasks. We have to work together, so the more everyone knows, the better off everyone is.
 
C-182 flyer said:
Think about this too, some of those guys flying Hornets in the MOA may only have 250 hours total time and are hanging onto the stabs, they are not really looking for other traffic or doing a good job running the radar.
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Very good point, as a RAC myself, I'd attest to the fact that there is so much to concentrate on that it becomes very challenging to really keep up a good lookout for interlopers when in the middle of the tactical portion of the flight (and I'm not even in BFM/FWT yet). Ideally that is something that will change with experience, but it's tough this early on. Also, for the civilian types flying out there, keep in mind that just because we have radar in our jets doesn't mean that we aren't doing other things with it that might preclude picking up a stray aircraft out in the MOA. Sometimes a good experienced lead/IP or the controlling agency will be our only heads up.
 
I used to regularly (2-3 times/week) fly through the Lemoore MOA's in a King Air, though the last time was in late 2009. I was usually at 16,500 NW bound and 17,500 SE bound. Always talked to Showtime, they never seemed to have a problem with it, would occasionally point out traffic, but not all that often. I also occasionally did some lower level flying in those MOA's, but always talked to Showtime when down low, as well........ again, never any problems. Has something changed in the last year and a half? Are they busier now than they used to be?
 
I was approaching NLC from the south on my way to OAK when I heard of a -18 flamed out with live ord. I entered slow flight to extend my time in the area. The Hornet was coming down from FL220 and they hurried to get out the nets and CFR. Then a King Air came on freq arriving from VGB. TWR denied his request to land. The pilot continued the requests. Sigh It had to be a colonel or higher. Sho nuff, Mr Hot Stuff gets on freq to order the TWR to clear him to land. TWR had enough...they told the KA to hold to the south. I departed the area not seeing the Hornet landing but I heard it on freq. I have never penetrated NLC MOA except on IFR clearance.
 
I did my private/instrument training in Fresno and flew through the Lemoore MOA all the time. Mostly VFR but also IFR a few times. Never had anything out of the ordinary happen. Then again it was only hot one time if I remember and even that was uneventful.
 
msw said:
Always talked to Showtime, they never seemed to have a problem with it, would occasionally point out traffic, but not all that often.
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sfgiants13 said:
Never had anything out of the ordinary happen. Then again it was only hot one time if I remember and even that was uneventful.
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The lack of comment from the controlling agency never means that your presence didn't plop a huge turd in the planned training of the military aircraft using the MOA. Chances are, the controllers have no idea how the presence of non-participating VFR traffic effects the missions of the participating military traffic.

When civil traffic causes me to 'knock it off', I never complain or comment to the controlling agency...after all, it's perfectly legal for non-participating traffic to be there. There wouldn't be any point of informing the controller, "damn it, we just lost the ability to execute that 3rd scenario that we needed for this to be a complete sortie!" It doesn't mean training wasn't lost, nor does it mean some choice words aren't spoken on the ICS or intraflight freq...or in the debrief after the sortie.
 
The Showtime controllers aren't going to indicate to you that there might have been a problem when you flew through the MOA, and you won't hear the jets because they are using UHF. On almost every flight I have had in the Lemoore MOA there is at least one interloper causing us to knock it off and reset. There is definitely a lot of choice words over the Tac frequency and in the debrief when this happens. I know it seems like stopping a fight until the interloper passes is not a big deal, but sometimes that is just enough gas wasted to not be able to meet the training objectives or required BFM sets and the entire flight has to be re-flown which is pretty expensive at about $15k per hour.

Obviously if someone is transiting IFR, the MOA is cold or if it goes hot while they are already in it there is nothing they can do other than descend to get below it. The interlopers that our guys get most aggravated with are the commercial guys in turbines flying through in the teens because you would think they would know how dangerous it is and if they are carry passengers, I bet those passengers don't know the risky situation that the pilot put them in. Until you see it form the other side, most pilots just won't realize that there is definitely risk by flying through an active MOA and any close calls or trouble they caused will likely be transparent to them. Before I joined the Navy, I didn't think twice about flying through a MOA, now there is no way I would do it.
 
Honest Question: If VFR traffic causes so much grief and wasted fuel with incomplete sorties then why doesn't the Navy move the MOA back to the Sierra's (where it was a few years ago) where there isn't any VFR traffic to deal with?
 
subpilot said:
Honest Question: If VFR traffic causes so much grief and wasted fuel with incomplete sorties then why doesn't the Navy move the MOA back to the Sierra's (where it was a few years ago) where there isn't any VFR traffic to deal with?
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There has not been a change in the MOAs except for the addition of the Lemoore MOA. Over the Sierras, you still have the Foothills MOA that does not get used much and the R-2508 complex where the majority of flights take place. The Lemoore MOA is used mostly for BFM and some other training flights that are not very dynamic because it is close to the field and that allows for more training or at least a better chance of completing, since you don't have to burn your gas transiting all the way to Owens, Saline, Death, or Panamint. There is not too much that can be accomplished over the Sierras since the terrain is so high and, over the parks, 3k AGL is the minimum altitude.
 
The Lemoore guys would route the MTR to the coast and play in the Hunter MOA. That was over my house. When I lived in Atascadero they would turn inbound over Avila and burn back to NLC sometimes 100' above the Salinas River bed. How cool was that? Sadly, some neighbors didn't dig it. A guy can't get a break I tell ya.
 
Kind of on the same topic...

How many know where to look to see where waivered aerobatic areas exist, altitudes, freqs etc..? Its not has hard as you think. Same type of crap goin on just in a different pile. Some are active every VFR day sunrise to sunset. Last time I checked a Pitts doesn't have radar or TCAS...

At least you can look on a chart and see the MOA.
 
TwoTwoLeft said:
Last time I checked a Pitts doesn't have radar or TCAS...
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Don't be of the mindset that this is some magic equipment that can avert midairs. TCAS wasn't designed to handle the vertical and angular velocities that fighter/trainer aircraft generate. Radar is a complicated machine to use well when the aircraft isn't maneuvering, so when there is maneuvering going on it provides very little SA on non-participating traffic.
 
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