Flying the perfect ILS.....

Shiftace

Shiftace

s***posting with decency. trolling with integrity.
Been working on my instrument rating and getting better at them ILS approaches, which have always been the weak link for me. I've finally got it down to where I can fly a stable (and almost perfect approach!), till about the last 100-150 feet. Then I lose it. Mostly the localilzer needle is what I lose.

Any tips to perfect an ILS approach? What can I do to fly this down to the minimums? Currently, following my instructor's advice: I use the aileron to steer and try not to touch the yoke (for altitude) while established. I try and make corrections on the glidepath using power.

Thoughts?
 
Do you mean the last 100-150 feet above minimums, or the last 100-150 feet above the runway, ie the point where you are navigating using sight? I would say the important things are small corrections, do not over control the airplane and end up in a PIO situation. Be aware of where the winds are coming from, try and find a drift killed heading to keep you on center line, bug it and try to stay within the bug as far as heading changes are concerned, when doing this anticipate how quickly the course will come back to you and make corrections based on that. Try to keep bank to a max of 10 degrees. Stay on instruments as you come down, the transition from inside to outside is the hardest part, I have a tendency to get above glideslope at that point, I know this so I force forward pressure on the yoke to be 2 white 2 red at like 100 feet above TCH. Most importantly just keep practicing and see what works. Realize it will never be perfect in a 2000 pound Cessna that is way more susceptible to gusts and crosswinds than say a 737 or C-17 where you can just kinda freeze the picture because you have so much mass and momentum working for you in comparison.
 
Soku39 said:
Do you mean the last 100-150 feet above minimums, or the last 100-150 feet above the runway, ie the point where you are navigating using sight? I would say the important things are small corrections, do not over control the airplane and end up in a PIO situation. Be aware of where the winds are coming from, try and find a drift killed heading to keep you on center line, bug it and try to stay within the bug as far as heading changes are concerned, when doing this anticipate how quickly the course will come back to you and make corrections based on that. Try to keep bank to a max of 10 degrees. Stay on instruments as you come down, the transition from inside to outside is the hardest part, I have a tendency to get above glideslope at that point, I know this so I force forward pressure on the yoke to be 2 white 2 red at like 100 feet above TCH. Most importantly just keep practicing and see what works. Realize it will never be perfect in a 2000 pound Cessna that is way more susceptible to gusts and crosswinds than say a 737 or C-17 where you can just kinda freeze the picture because you have so much mass and momentum working for you in comparison.
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100-150 above the minimums. Thanks for the post.
 
Shiftace said:
100-150 above the minimums. Thanks for the post.
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Right about then the tendency to over correct is huge, because the localizer is so sensitive at that point. In a 172 you might just have to accept what you've got, if you pop out on the lined up with the left edge of the runway or whatever, the 200 feet you have left to fly down visually should be plenty to fix it and get back to center line at 90 knots.

Also your ILS probably isn't as bad as you think. At least you're hand flying the thing. airline dudes can barely do one because they use they fly the ILS with the autopilot coupled so much, and when the autopilot can't keep up in a winter storm or whatever dudes have a tendency to suck.
 
The best advice I was ever given was on my first jet type - "push down, go left"

The wind will back as you descend through the last 1000ft, so you will generally have to alter your heading to the left to compensate. The wind speed will generally drop off, giving you a slightly higher ground speed, and you'll need to increase the RoD slightly to compensate.

Not hard and fast rules, but very effective rules of thumb for the type of corrections.
 
I wouldn't change how you "fly" just because you're on an ILS as far as using power for glidepath control and not touching the yoke. I think your instructor is giving you those techniques to keep you from over-controlling but I'd find it confusing. It's more about small and precise heading and descent rate adjustments. Most importantly, don't "stare" at the GS and LOC needles. Use them as a reference to make a change then make the change on the VSI (for GS) or HI (for heading). Learn to make 2 degree heading changes and 100 fpm pitch changes. You can practice that without doing an ILS (just flying around) and then come back and do the real deal. Those needles get super sensitive when your close to minimums. Don't chase them are stare at them. Also, the slower you go the slower the needles move. If you can do an approach at 80 knots vs 100 knots you'll see a difference. Not sure what you're flying but the slower you can safely make your approach speed the easier it is. Consult with your CFII on that.
 
DE727UPS said:
If you can do an approach at 80 knots vs 100 knots you'll see a difference. Not sure what you're flying but the slower you can safely make your approach speed the easier it is. Consult with your CFII on that.
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I actually disagree there. I think it's significantly easier to fly an approach faster. For any given wind change, you wall have to make a smaller and less aggressive heading change to stay on the localiser or glideslope. You are also down the approach slightly faster. I have always flown approaches in light singles at 100 knots, configuring when visual as required.
 
DE727UPS said:
I wouldn't change how you "fly" just because you're on an ILS as far as using power for glidepath control and not touching the yoke. I think your instructor is giving you those techniques to keep you from over-controlling but I'd find it confusing. It's more about small and precise heading and descent rate adjustments. Most importantly, don't "stare" at the GS and LOC needles. Use them as a reference to make a change then make the change on the VSI (for GS) or HI (for heading). Learn to make 2 degree heading changes and 100 fpm pitch changes. You can practice that without doing an ILS (just flying around) and then come back and do the real deal. Those needles get super sensitive when your close to minimums. Don't chase them are stare at them. Also, the slower you go the slower the needles move. If you can do an approach at 80 knots vs 100 knots you'll see a difference. Not sure what you're flying but the slower you can safely make your approach speed the easier it is. Consult with your CFII on that.
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Thanks. I usually try for 80 with a 400 FPM descent. This in a Cessna 172. No flaps....
 
mshunter said:
Speak for yourself. I hand fly as much as they'll let me, which where I'm at, I'm lucky, because they allow it a lot.
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I'm speaking for most guys I've flown with at the two airlines I've worked for. I probably hand fly more than, most, but I'm definitely not out there at the end of a 4 day handjamming stuff.
 
Soku39 said:
airline dudes can barely do one because they use they fly the ILS with the autopilot coupled so much, and when the autopilot can't keep up in a winter storm or whatever dudes have a tendency to suck.
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LOL! [HASHTAG]#trolling[/HASHTAG] right?

"airline dudes can barely do one"

Quite the statement. And I kinda recognize you're saying it in jest, but seriously? Great shot across the bow with the massive brush you're using.

Since we are measuring stuff, I feel pretty confident in my ability to hand-fly a single engine ILS approach and execute the missed manually...would I do it in the real world - nah. It increases workload for both the PM and PF. However, will I hand-fly an ILS in MVMC weather from some point prior to vectors and to landing? Sure, if the workload management aspect I have analyzed is one that is conducive to the environment I am operating in.

You see, there are aspects of any operation that must be evaluated by the professionals up front. Somehow I doubt you have empirical data to support your assertion, but I do enjoy your attempt at challenging all airline dudes' abilities to operate their aircraft appropriately.
 
surreal1221 said:
LOL! [HASHTAG]#trolling[/HASHTAG] right?

"airline dudes can barely do one"

Quite the statement. And I kinda recognize you're saying it in jest, but seriously? Great shot across the bow with the massive brush you're using.

Since we are measuring stuff, I feel pretty confident in my ability to hand-fly a single engine ILS approach and execute the missed manually...would I do it in the real world - nah. It increases workload for both the PM and PF. However, will I hand-fly an ILS in MVMC weather from some point prior to vectors and to landing? Sure, if the workload management aspect I have analyzed is one that is conducive to the environment I am operating in.

You see, there are aspects of any operation that must be evaluated by the professionals up front. Somehow I doubt you have empirical data to support your assertion, but I do enjoy your attempt at challenging all airline dudes' abilities to operate their aircraft appropriately.
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Woooow didn't mean to start this whole thing up, I AM an airline guy after all. I'm not saying that airline guys literally can't fly one, but you know what I'm saying...
 
Joshwa said:
I actually disagree there. I think it's significantly easier to fly an approach faster. For any given wind change, you wall have to make a smaller and less aggressive heading change to stay on the localiser or glideslope. You are also down the approach slightly faster. I have always flown approaches in light singles at 100 knots, configuring when visual as required.
Click to expand...

I agree with this a lot. That extra speed means that the deflections you'll need to make for wind will be smaller.
 
Throttle controls airspeed elevator for glide path control. Also make small corrections early then big one's later.
 
surreal1221 said:
LOL! [HASHTAG]#trolling[/HASHTAG] right?

"airline dudes can barely do one"

Quite the statement. And I kinda recognize you're saying it in jest, but seriously? Great shot across the bow with the massive brush you're using.
.
Click to expand...

The airline I work for has a very interesting dynamic. We operate several routes where we are allowed to fly VFR on short legs with no radar coverage. Some pilots absolutely embrace that kind of flying and pride themselves on doing it perfectly with the flight director off. These same guys make sure their raw data approach skills are good as well. Other guys will leave the autopilot coupled on a visual approach until it has captured the glideslope and localizer and they have final flaps and then maybe consider clicking it off. Always interesting to see the different styles of flying and hear people's reasoning as to why they do things the way they do.
 
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