Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearance?

S

SoCalFlyer2

Well-Known Member
I had an arguement with the owner of my school who is a real old school guy (flying for 50+ years). He told me that you can legally fly IFR in "uncontrolled airspace" in IMC conditions without being on an IFR flight plan and without talking to anyone. For instance, he took off from Catalina island here in CA and there was a "thin layer" he climbed through a couple hundred feet off the ground until he was on top. So basically I can take off in IMC conditions in Golf and yell "IFR" out the window and I'm safe? He argued you don't even need a two way radio in golf at uncontrolled airspace but then you need a 2 way radio per IFR minimum equipment (GRABCARDD)

FAR 91.173 states you must be on on an IFR flight plan and be in communication with ATC when flying through "controlled airspace" nothing about uncontrolled. I'm not saying this would be wise or a smart thing to do, but is it legal or illegal and what is the reference? My thought process was you are taking off VFR and you must adhere to VFR flight rules when it comes to ceilings/takeoff mins.

Now part 91 has no takeoff mins when flying IFR. Another instructor chimed in and said that I could take off in in uncontrolled airspace and track airways and fly to another airport in that same "uncontrolled airspace" without being on a flight plan.

I lost $10 to this guy and I want it back. Please help!
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace with any clearance?

Tell him (the instructor) that would be great if airways weren't controlled (Class E) airspace.

Some guy got busted a while ago and part of the bust was for being IFR in uncontrolled airspace. He got busted officially for careless and reckless, but I don't want to do that carpet dance in front of a judge trying to defend that I wasn't careless or reckless. You can search for the legal opinion from the faa's website. I'd post it, but I'm multitasking right now...the wife insists I do my expense reports for some reason.

-mini
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

The guy your talking about is right. You can do all of those things. But, as Mini pointed out what was the norm a long time ago will now get you busted by an FAA that says "Can't" more than "Can".
Remember, if you do this, look both ways before takeoff. The Feds are not your friends.
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

91.155 period, as VFR we have cloud clearance requirements. So there is no need to stipulated IMC in controlled airspace vs uncontrolled because if you must stay clear of clouds in 91.155 but still be allowed to go IMC? You can't :)

Added: You can certainly do this if you file IFR. If you arn't filed IFR then you are subject to the VFR flight rules.
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

shdw said:
91.155 period, as VFR we have cloud clearance requirements. So there is no need to stipulated IMC in controlled airspace vs uncontrolled because if you must stay clear of clouds in 91.155 but still be allowed to go IMC? You can't :)

Added: You can certainly do this if you file IFR. If you arn't filed IFR then you are subject to the VFR flight rules.
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No so fast. I think it's 91.183 that requires an IFR clearance for operating IFR in controlled airspace. Maybe it's 173? It's somewhere around the .170s or .180s.

Then there's 91.13...which they can certainly nab you on for operating IFR without a clearance. They've already done it.

*edit*
Found it. It's 91.173
§ 91.173 ATC clearance and flight plan required.

No person may operate an aircraft in controlled airspace under IFR unless that person has—
(a) Filed an IFR flight plan; and
(b) Received an appropriate ATC clearance.

As a follow-up. Why would filing make a difference without actually getting the clearance? We file all the time to places we never end up going...doesn't mean we're subject to IFR rules sitting there on a couch at the FBO.

*editx2*
Sorry if that came off a-holey. That wasn't the intent. Just trying to stimulate conversation is all.

-mini
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace with any clearance?

minitour said:
Tell him (the instructor) that would be great if airways weren't controlled (Class E) airspace.

-mini
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Unless you are in VMC when you enter E and remain VMC until you exit E. Of coarse, this is all moot due to 91.13.
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace with any clearance?

Brian Z said:
Unless you are in VMC when you enter E and remain VMC until you exit E. Of coarse, this is all moot due to 91.13.
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True. I guess "technically" he's correct, reading the text as written in the post. You could take off in uncontrolled airspace, track the airways, land in uncontrolled airspace without talking to someone or having so much as a transponder or radio....provided you were VFR under 10,000', bla bla bla. I read it to mean you'd be IFR er...in IMC the whole time.

-mini
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

You guys keep going back and forth so much I can't figure out if there's a consensus or not.

I was under the understanding that it was legal to fly IFR in uncontrolled airspace (G) without a clearance. Not many places to do that, but there are some spots in U.P. of Michigan, along with other locations, that there is still class G.

(edit to add) Like this:

class.JPG
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

SteveC said:
You guys keep going back and forth so much I can't figure out if there's a consensus or not.

I was under the understanding that it was legal to fly IFR in uncontrolled airspace (G) without a clearance. Not many places to do that, but there are some spots in U.P. of Michigan, along with other locations, that there is still class G.

(edit to add) Like this:

View attachment 8351
Click to expand...

It's legal until you get violated.

-mini
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

minitour said:
It's legal until you get violated.

-mini
Click to expand...

I still disagree, I have been looking but havn't been able to find it. However I am pretty sure somewhere it says you need to be on an IFR flight plan, IFR rated, and something else to be IFR. Otherwise you should be under VFR rules which 91.155 covers class G with remain clear of clouds (day) and standards for night.
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

Lets remember the VFR/IFR vs VMC/IMC.

I believe it's legal to be IMC in G airspace without being on an IFR flight plan, as Steve was referring.

I also believe you'll be walking the line of 91.13 if something occurs (accident/incident) when you were doing that; since that's likely what it'll be at least partially blamed on.
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

minitour said:
Reckless and careless for operating IFR without an ATC clearance. :laff:

-mini
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I'm just trying to figure out if there was any other regs involved, or just the R&C. I'm slow on the uptake sometimes.
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

MikeD said:
Lets remember the VFR/IFR vs VMC/IMC.

I believe it's legal to be IMC in G airspace without being on an IFR flight plan, as Steve was referring.

I also believe you'll be walking the line of 91.13 if something occurs (accident/incident) when you were doing that; since that's likely what it'll be at least partially blamed on.
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If your not on an IFR flight plan though can you operate under IFR flight rules? If the answer to that is no then you cannot do this because you would be under VFR rules which includes cloud clearance. I am trying to find out if anyone knows of a reg that exists stating that you need an IFR flight plan to operate under IFR rules?
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

shdw said:
. Otherwise you should be under VFR rules which 91.155 covers class G with remain clear of clouds (day) and standards for night.
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Applicable portion of 91.155 here:

(b) Class G Airspace. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section, the following operations may be conducted in Class G airspace below 1,200 feet above the surface:

(1) Helicopter. A helicopter may be operated clear of clouds if operated at a speed that allows the pilot adequate opportunity to see any air traffic or obstruction in time to avoid a collision.

(2) Airplane, powered parachute, or weight-shift-control aircraft. If the visibility is less than 3 statute miles but not less than 1 statute mile during night hours and you are operating in an airport traffic pattern within1/2mile of the runway, you may operate an airplane, powered parachute, or weight-shift-control aircraft clear of clouds.
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Now, with the 1 mile/clear of clouds requirement. Could someone still fly IMC within these provisions if they're clear of clouds, yet at night where there may be no discernable horizon and they're in the middle of nowhere, for example?


[Yes, this is the VFR-portion of the discussion going on in this thread. Still working on the IFR portion of the discussion as the OP questioned.]
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

shdw said:
I still disagree, I have been looking but havn't been able to find it. However I am pretty sure somewhere it says you need to be on an IFR flight plan, IFR rated, and something else to be IFR. Otherwise you should be under VFR rules which 91.155 covers class G with remain clear of clouds (day) and standards for night.
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Did you read 91.173 as posted?

Sure, you need an IFR flight plan and ATC clearance "...in controlled airspace...".

There's no reg that I know of that says if you aren't filed/cleared IFR you're automatically subject to VFR rules.

SteveC said:
I'm just trying to figure out if there was any other regs involved, or just the R&C. I'm slow on the uptake sometimes.
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I don't think there was in the case I'm thinking of. I could be wrong though.

-mini
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

minitour said:
I don't think there was in the case I'm thinking of. I could be wrong though.

-mini
Click to expand...

Thanks. I think most of us are on the same page then - it's legal to fly IFR in uncontrolled airspace without a clearance and without talking to ATC, but probably not smart to do in the kind of places that most of us hang out.

That said, I'm guessing that there might be some real out of the way places where it is not all that unusual to do so, though. Parts of Alaska maybe? Remote parts of Montana??? I don't know, just speculating.
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

Western North and South Dakota have a bunch of G. This was actually a discussion on my Inst checkride. I said it was legal (right answer), but that I could not think of a reason I would ever do it. The examinars point was if you were at an airport without phone coverage in the middle of no where Norht Dakota, you could depart and stay in G and climb high enough to contact center and pick up a clearance.

Still dont think Id do it though...
 
Re: Flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace without any clearanc

It is routine in northern Canada. 126.70 and announce while enroute or use the MF (mandatory frequency) or ATF (Aerodrome traffic frequency).

Imagine being in the clag and being told "Radar service terminated, squawk 1200 and switch to enroute approved."

Its a big sky.
 
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