Flying IFR in a hostile country?

c172captain

c172captain

Well-Known Member
I'm familiar with the intricate and highly dense infastructure of the victor airways in the U.S. and how rigid the rules are for pilots in IMC to follow the complex rules. My question is how do you navigate w/o that type of system in a country where (assuming) you cannot use their victor airways (if they even exist) while in IMC?

Assuming it isn't classified info, do you guys use hi-tech GPS? The AWACS plane?

Thanks in advance
 
look at GPS airways in alaska, also consider GPS direct, I'm no military guy, but at ACE we flew GPS direct almost everywhere because we could maintain our obstacle clearance to wherever we'd start the approach, then, some of the approaches were even custom approaches designed by various companies that adhered to TERPS and we're approved by the FAA (be advised, some companies (but not many) make up their own approaches, but they aren't terps, so make sure the feds approve your approach before you fly it). As long as you know the altitudes in your sector and can maintain your obstacle clearance (e.g. 1000nonmountainous, 2000mountainous) you'll be fine in theory as long as someone knows where you're at and others know where your at. I figure most of Afghanistan is Class G anyway, so 2000AGL is probably pretty legit.
 
You fly Due Regard in international airspace. You either need the capability to operate clear of traffic by your own radar, ground/ship radar, or maintain VFR. It's no different than flying at FL280 off the coast of a not friendly country. Also, unless you are in open hostilities against a country, you aren't exactly allowed to fly over or in their sovereign airspace.... cause they tend to get peeved.
 
In both Iraq and Afghanistan the rules of flight are controlled by the ACO, or Airspace Control Order.

That establishes the standard routes in and out of the country, transit altitudes, tanker tracks, etc. It is essentially the "rules of the road" in hostile airspace. It might say that everyone going westbound will operate in blocks 0-4 (e.g. 10,000 to 14,000 and 20,000 to 24,000) and everyone going eastbound will be in block 5-9. It might establish airway-like routes that have names and waypoints made up specificially for the military operation at hand. It might establish specific controlling agencies you have to coordinate with (AWACS, RED CROWN, ASOC, etc) who may exercise ATC-like control and deconfliction of air assets.

On top of the ACO, each day the ATO, or Air Tasking Order is published. Although the ATO's main job is to direct where every military aircraft in the country will go (and when they will go there), it also establishes altitude blocks as well for deconfliction.

Now, realize that most of the time the ACO and ATO are NOT very restrictive. Sometimes they are (the "Ocean Parkway" system into and out of the Arabian Gulf in 2003 was very tightly restricted because of the volume of traffic there) and sometimes they are not.

When they're not very restrictive, you fly essentially see-and-avoid with controlling agencies like AWACS and other ground radar sites giving you ATC-like pointouts to other aircraft when available.
 
Without hitting on the SPINS for entering certain areas, (I've flown over/into places like Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, China, and the surrounding areas in either military or civilian capacity), overflying these countries is not too unlike flying anywhere else.

For example, here's a flightplan I pulled up on a Delta flight from Atlanta to Kuwait, using flightaware.com:

UGAAA2 AHN J208 HPW J191 RBV JFK PUT
EBONY N81B YQX NATU ODLUM UN551 NIBOG
UN551 BESOP UP6 REMSI UL603 ARNEM UL620
TALEG UL620 RIGSA UL620 CND UN616 DINRO
UL601 ODERO UP975 EZS UG8 SRT UT37 KABAN
R784 NOLDO UP975 SIDAD

You'll notice the familiar Jet airways in the states, and then they're filed aross the North Atlantic on NAT Track Uniform, and then the rest of the way on domestic airway routing through Europe and the Middle East. The nomenclature of the airways may vary; for example UL620 is referred to as "Upper Lima 620". There's nothing cosmic about the routing through Iraq (KABAN through SIDAD), it's on standard airways published on Jeppesen charts anyone can obtain. You're generally in radar contact from the time you coast in to Western Europe until destination, although the sophistication of the ATC services declines as you head further east. You may find yourself making more position reports and giving estimates for future waypoints. Also, keep in mind that you may be flying in an area of the world where neighboring countries don't talk to each other, so you may be doing your own handoffs (best get in contact with the next country 10-15 minutes prior to their FIR boundry). There's somewhat of a language barrier, although I've found the English spoken by Arab controllers is very good and easy to understand (compared to former Soviet states like Kyrgyzstan--not to mention they use meters!). When you're flying over certain parts of China or Africa, you may need to use HF radio in order to get ahold of anyone in certain areas. Navigation is accomplished usually with GPS/INS backed up with traditional nav aids.

I hope that helps. A more basic answer to your question would be that we generally obtain overflight permits / diplomatic clearances to operate in the countries we operate in/over and comply with their respective airway structure. In the event we're engaged in an active air campaign against an adversary (and hence wouldn't be granted overflight permits), Hacker's answer would be more applicable.
 
Hacker15e said:
It might establish airway-like routes that have names and waypoints made up specificially for the military operation at hand. It might establish specific controlling agencies you have to coordinate with (AWACS, RED CROWN, ASOC, etc) who may exercise ATC-like control and deconfliction of air assets.
_________
When they're not very restrictive, you fly essentially see-and-avoid with controlling agencies like AWACS and other ground radar sites giving you ATC-like pointouts to other aircraft when available.
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Interesting post. I did the squadron rep at the GAT shop with the collateral duty as the SPINS doc at JTFSWA CAOC (OSW). Amazing how much coordination goes into putting these documents together. I'm glad to hear that you guys are getting some deconfliction support.

In my experience over Bosnia (Deny Flight etc) working primarily with NATO AWACS birds, we weren't given any ATC type services to speak of... In fact it was squadron policy that to fly due regard, our pilots used the mk 1 eyeballs in VMC, as AWACS did not provide "positive control" and really it was a little bit of a madhouse.
 
germb747 said:
There's somewhat of a language barrier, although I've found the English spoken by Arab controllers is very good and easy to understand (compared to former Soviet states like Kyrgyzstan--not to mention they use meters!).
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Do you mean in other arab countries besides Iraq? I'm pretty sure 99% of ATC In Iraq is run by the USAF.
 
Ozelot said:
Do you mean in other arab countries besides Iraq? I'm pretty sure 99% of ATC In Iraq is run by the USAF.
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Yes, I'm referring to the other Arab countries (Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, etc). Turkey has this really annoying sounding chick usually on Ankara when I fly through. True most of the time over Iraq (and Afghanistan) you're talking to US controllers, although sometimes it'll sound like an Iraqi (presumably being trained by us). Everytime I've overflown Iraq it's been up in the 30's along standard airway routing, hence must like flying anywhere else with a few exceptions; can't really speak for the intra-theater tactical stuff (probably shouldn't anyway).
 
Funny,

I can see Saddam now complaining to some ICAO about foreign military jets flying over restricted/prohibited Bagdad airspace.

So, do cruise missiles violate airspace? :D
 
Isn't there a special FAR saying U.S. registered aircraft are not allowed to fly in Iraq/Afganistan airspace? I could have sworn I remember reading this one... Is there a lopehole to it?
 
Pilots12 said:
Isn't there a special FAR saying U.S. registered aircraft are not allowed to fly in Iraq/Afganistan airspace? I could have sworn I remember reading this one... Is there a lopehole to it?
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There is a loophole to everything. :)

Pertaining to Iraq It's SFAR No.77 to Part 91.
 
Pilots12 said:
Isn't there a special FAR saying U.S. registered aircraft are not allowed to fly in Iraq/Afganistan airspace? I could have sworn I remember reading this one... Is there a lopehole to it?
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I did it routinely at Kalitta (when I wasn't furloughed). They're lucrative contracts from Uncle Sam (Miltary/Post Office), and I guess not a whole lot of operators who are able/willing to do them. Of course we had all the necessary legal approval to do so.
 
Hacker15e said:
When they're not very restrictive, you fly essentially see-and-avoid with controlling agencies like AWACS and other ground radar sites giving you ATC-like pointouts to other aircraft when available.
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Same.

AWACS (definitely) and most ground/ship sites are not ATC qualified, though.

ATC is a much different role thant that provided by the E-3/GCI, and the E-3/GCI controller isn't required to provide basic flight following. Anything you get is bonus over see 'n avoid.
 
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