future pilot
Well-Known Member
Good point.
'Flying Cheap' PBS Documentary on Regional Airlines
- Thread starter jynxyjoe
- Start date
Good point.
tonyw
Well-Known Member
Wanna bet? Remember the Mr. Discount Airline Pilot Guy skit from the Bud Light Real Men of Genius ads?
A lot of people are stupid. They'll see that they can save $10 on a fare and not realize that in order to save that $10, they'll lose hours of vacation time because they have to return home at 2:00 PM instead of 8:00 PM. And they'll lose some more on the front side, because they won't depart until 1:30 PM instead of 10:00 AM.
But hey, they'll save $10. And they can use that to stuff their lardbutts with even more junk food at the Golden Corral buffet.
I'm telling you, if an airline can figure out how to be the Grey Goose of the industry and they don't have to deal with people like this, they'll have it made.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
SWA is pretty expensive :O)
greaper007
Well-Known Member
It's funny, people look at an airline like Southwest. They could be flown around by my dad who has about 30,000 hours in the 737 and maybe 300 carrier landings in an F-14. Or they could have flown on "United," by me, 1500 hours total and I'm the Captain.....
Discount Airline
.
C150J
Well-Known Member
For all those emphasizing supply and demand, I agree with you. What our professional groups need to work on is barriers to employment. I guarantee you that an eighteen year old high school graduate can accomplish 80% of the work that a family physician attends to daily. The AMA would NEVER stand for that, however. ALPA needs to heavily pressure the FAA to raise professional standards. Look at all the requirements that now exist to become a police officer. Our jobs are INCREDIBLY similar in responsibility, yet our prerequisites are completely inadequate compared to law enforcement. Heavy coursework on meteorology, aerodynamics, systems, TERPS, more extensive flight training, and residency-like experience would invariably limit the supply of employable pilots.
I'm sure all of you professional pilots can name a handful of Captains/First Officers that don't belong anywhere near the left seat of an Part 25 aircraft.
I'm sure all of you professional pilots can name a handful of Captains/First Officers that don't belong anywhere near the left seat of an Part 25 aircraft.
C150J
Well-Known Member
True, but look at how differently airlines have handled such situations in the past. When UAL was taking private pilots, they KNEW such aviators needed extensive training to meet standards. During the hiring spree of 2007, airlines just kept lowering the bar without recognizing severe deficiencies in knowledge and experience. It seems as if the good faith doctrine has all but disappeared within the airline industry.
Flight schools offering "instant gratification" programs do a true disservice to our profession, as they don't expose students to the demands and challenges of the work. If training was more regimented and employers actually cared about the caliber of PERSON operating their aircraft, we'd be better off. Unfortunately, I think the reason they don't care is the fact that your average consumer is playing a numbers game on Orbitz.
All this talk of higher standards bring us back to scope. Hacker, let me propose something to you that may sound ridiculous and is purely hypothetical (I apologize for my ignorance or heavy use of future forecasting). You are a highly qualified military aviator. Imagine that one day, you and your rated comrades are offered the option to fly a UAS and you refuse. Then, the Air Force decides to utilize low-paid non-rated personnel in UAS operations. Five years later, all but a few manned platform missions are outsourced to the UAS folks. Regardless of the actual skill required to operate a UAS, you find yourself out of a job. Meanwhile, there are hundreds of budding UAS pilots in the pipeline, all flying from a box in hope to, one day, fly one of the few remaining manned platforms for more money.
Believe me, although ignorant of military aviation, I do want to acknowledge that such an example is purely comparative and by no means my real understanding of how things work.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Name of said district?
greaper007
Well-Known Member
Depends on where you are, in the Northeast or California if you're a family of four making less than $100,000 you're pretty much lower middle class.
Patrick
Well-Known Member
Completely agree. The AMA, the Bar, the NSPE, etc all work to limit the flow of people into their profession. I can assure you that if the Bar ever found an attorney doing legal work in NYC at $50 an hour that they would find some way to reprimand him, whether it be by the books or not (if you catch my drift here). Why? It devalues the profession.
If it were harder to become a professional pilot, fewer kids would be doing it, which would limit supply, and thus raise the bar for the rest.
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
There are plenty of attorneys out there doing contract work for $20-30 an hour.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
That's actually happening and going to happen. Not about the money, mind you, but USAF pilots have allowed a separate type of UAS/RPA operator to be created to go fly those things. Why? Because we're 'too good' to do it, and we've created what is now a bit of a 2nd class citizen to go do it.
What we as a pilot group have failed to see is that, in the long run, unmanned platforms are eventually going to grow in importance, scope, and number. Which means, that group of '2nd class citizens' will grow in importance as well. Eventually, they'll take over our jobs.
Pretty much the same thing that has happened with majors, regionals, and scope clauses.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
I don't know if what you're saying in outright wrong, but I'd wager a guess that it is.
I don't believe that bar associations set minimum income levels for attorneys. Heck I'll bet you dollars to donuts there are attorneys out there who are filthy stinking rich that do a majority of their work pro bono.
Bignellyxx
Well-Known Member
I don't think that increased barriers to entry are what we need? That only continues the desecration of GA flying. It will continue the make it a rich kids game. Do you think Law and MBA programs are any different than aviation programs that promise riches. You get all of these third tier schools adding sub par programs. I understand that Bar exams will still hold out crappy lawyers but what happens to crappy MBA's. I think we all know they manage airlines.
I think regional FO's would be paid better if ALPA went back to their fundamentals. Pilots flying the same aircraft for the same rate. Instead they are screwing around with this crew pass junk.
I think regional FO's would be paid better if ALPA went back to their fundamentals. Pilots flying the same aircraft for the same rate. Instead they are screwing around with this crew pass junk.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
Most of the world's most profitable airlines right now are discount carriers. I believe the airline industry has changed from the past where now the most profitable business model is one that aims at the average customer. I believe we will see the Legacy carriers shrink and the LLCs expand.
Alliegiant, AirTran, SWA, Jetblue and Spirit all had financially successful years in 2009, some like AirTran, even record-breaking.
Worldwide, Gol Airlines, AirAsia, VirginBlue, Ryan Air, Easyjet etc are all very financially successful airlines.
In another industry, who's more profitable, Walmart or the Publix upper end grocery chains?
Its time to give Joe Six pack more credit
Matt13C
Well-Known Member
Most of the world's most profitable airlines right now are discount carriers. I believe the airline industry has changed from the past where now the most profitable business model is one that aims at the average customer. I believe we will see the Legacy carriers shrink and the LLCs expand.
Alliegiant, AirTran, SWA, Jetblue and Spirit all had financially successful years in 2009, some like AirTran, even record-breaking.
Worldwide, Gol Airlines, AirAsia, VirginBlue, Ryan Air, Easyjet etc are all very financially successful airlines.
In another industry, who's more profitable, Walmart or the Publix upper end grocery chains?
Its time to give Joe Six pack more credit
Wal-Mart isnt successful because it undercuts everyone at a loss, it can undercut everyone at a profit because it revolutionized the industry. Their inventory system was a game changer, it allowed them to be stocked to near perfection, no waste, no overstock, every square foot of the store optimized for profit. Airlines dont act anything like that, LCC come in, undercut the competition at a loss in the hopes to gain market share and then raise prices to recoup loses. As we all know, those loses are rarely made back. Thats not a sustainable business model and in no way shape or form comparable to Wal-Mart.
If airlines were smart, when the economy picked up, they wouldnt increase capacity, they would keep it constant. Demand goes up, supply stays the same, prices go up. Only once they have reached a realistic price for a seat should supply be increased, slowly. But I guess there are just too many rich guys out there just waiting to lose it all on the next failed low budget airline.
Until pilot groups band together under one giant umbrella to stand up and fight, management will continue to erode the profession by using us against each other.
Hootie
Old Skool
I can't believe this page has gone on this long.
Joe public deep down doesn't even care if you work for free, just as long as there is only one or two fatal crashes out of the probably 500k + domestic departures a year. End of story. It's only up to us to decide how little or how much we want to work for.
Joe public deep down doesn't even care if you work for free, just as long as there is only one or two fatal crashes out of the probably 500k + domestic departures a year. End of story. It's only up to us to decide how little or how much we want to work for.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
The airlines aren't forced to change their business models because they can just go to the government and get a bailout. They continue to undercut each other and loose massive amounts of cash and then go whining to the government.
I don't blame the airlines for pilot pay, I blame the pilot group as a whole. I blame the unions and individuals who go work for 20k a year. Like Trip7 said, Colgan has a stack of resumes that grows daily. As long as we have people willing to work for those wages, that is where the pay will stay.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Personally I'm going to watch just to applaud my fellow aviation professionals standing up for fair and ethical treatment in a safe work environment.
Clearly many of us aren't getting that type of treatment, and they took the time and risk to say something.
The conjecture about public interest is great and all, but ultimately, we must admit we have the public's ear for the moment.
Why not ask them to consider how we can make things safer and more hospitable for all?
Closed mouths don't get fed.
Clearly many of us aren't getting that type of treatment, and they took the time and risk to say something.
The conjecture about public interest is great and all, but ultimately, we must admit we have the public's ear for the moment.
Why not ask them to consider how we can make things safer and more hospitable for all?
Closed mouths don't get fed.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
Have you checked out SWA's business model? The first quote I bolded almost describes SWA perfectly. SWA was a complete game-changer. They brought back the point to point network when all thought the hub and spoke was the future. They gave a sobering new definition of the term "quick turn"