'Flying Cheap' PBS Documentary on Regional Airlines
- Thread starter jynxyjoe
- Start date
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
I hope that the whole show does a better job of asking the tough questions.
The Regional airline association rep answered the questions horribly, though.
"Salaries are set by the market. We are a business, and yes, we are trying to make a profit. We're not a pilot welfare agency. It's none of our business how expensive a hotel is in New Jersey, nor what a pilot does with his money, nor what his living expenses are. He knew what the wage was when *he* applied for the position...and there's a line a mile long out the door of people willing to take that job if he doesn't think he's being compensated enough."
I was also waiting for Miles to say in narrative,
"The open secret of the regional industry for decades has been the low pay -- that regionals were always traditionally seen as stepping stones to the higher paying major airlines, and pilots were willing to endure that low pay on their way to the proverbial 'brass ring.' Unfortunately, in the post 9/11 era the brass ring is gone, but the low pay remains, and pilots who have had to make regional airlines a career are stuck living at the 'pay your dues' level."
The Regional airline association rep answered the questions horribly, though.
"Salaries are set by the market. We are a business, and yes, we are trying to make a profit. We're not a pilot welfare agency. It's none of our business how expensive a hotel is in New Jersey, nor what a pilot does with his money, nor what his living expenses are. He knew what the wage was when *he* applied for the position...and there's a line a mile long out the door of people willing to take that job if he doesn't think he's being compensated enough."
I was also waiting for Miles to say in narrative,
"The open secret of the regional industry for decades has been the low pay -- that regionals were always traditionally seen as stepping stones to the higher paying major airlines, and pilots were willing to endure that low pay on their way to the proverbial 'brass ring.' Unfortunately, in the post 9/11 era the brass ring is gone, but the low pay remains, and pilots who have had to make regional airlines a career are stuck living at the 'pay your dues' level."
greaper007
Well-Known Member
This documentary was a great sob story. It will touch the public's heart for approximately 5 mins and 27 secs, and then they will go about their lives as normal, this includes picking the cheapest ticket to where ever they are traveling.
Meanwhile, Colgan is hiring and surely has a humongous stack of resumes. The media route is useless, and will always be useless. The day that Colgan is hiring and they have less resumes then jobs available, that is when pay will go up.
Or they can always strike
I agree, a multilevel attack is always the best though. A good negotiating team along with some public outcry is better than just a good negotiating team.
future pilot
Well-Known Member
If i was him. I would have said. Are you aware. That some of your pilots. Who are highly trained, and Have been to college. That are flying thousands of americans daily, With long hours, and tough weather conditions. are making little more than a worker at McDonalds? how can you explain to me. That you are paying the person that has my life and 45 others, Also a multi million dollar plane in their hands as much as a high schooler working at McDonalds.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Easy explanation: the market sets prices.
If the actual societal value of work set prices, then we wouldn't have teachers making povery wages and people who can run fast and throw a ball precisely making millions.
Matt13C
Well-Known Member
To an extent. The market sets the price at a given supply level, the industry sets the supply.
Look at all the different industries that cap their supply. Why cant the airline industry self regulate? Cant control the number of airlines legally as I understand it, but you can control pilots. So any person off the streets can get their private, but what about ALPA and other unions banding together to only certify a certain number of pilots a year, instant supply control. Obviously it wont happen, doesnt hurt to hope though.
I dont see anything coming of this besides some water cooler talk for a day. The public doesnt care and wont help. It will be a few minutes of bad press for the airlines and then back to business as usual.
greaper007
Well-Known Member
Not a bad idea but I'm not sure how you do it. The old toothpaste analogy comes to mind. The AMA is an association that does a good job of this by keeping the number of medical school entries low. The top schools have a less than 10% acceptance rate.
Flying on the other hand.......To the best of my knowledge no one can spend their free time getting a "Private Doctors License." People do this as a hobby, then they try to do it as a job. There's very few jobs that are also hobbies that can provide decent pay for everyone. Good examples are sports, music, art etc.
I like how you're thinking though.
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
I would say it is more their ability to successfully market stadium tickets and television advertising that makes them millions. The best shot put and javelin throwers aren't very rich...
And as for societal value, it would seem that society values watching certain sports highly. Moviestars make lot's of money too, but because they do something few people can (virtually assure a film will make money, simply by their association with it). Hedge fund managers make billions because they are making their clients billions. The ability to make money is what matters here, not the particular skill.
The average US teacher makes over $50,000/year, which isn't exactly a poverty wage. And it isn't exactly the hardest field to enter, either. Most of the teaching students I knew in college could barely do any higher level mathematics. And teachers often have side jobs. Their unions have been very effective at convincing the public that they are underpaid though. Teacher salaries have been rising faster than inflation, that is usually a signal that it is a job many people don't want to do. And don't forget, most teachers also get to retire at 55, with a real pension!
greaper007
Well-Known Member
Much like the average regional pilot there's a wide disparity between the top and bottom of that average though. A teacher in the northeast might be making 70,000+ but a teacher in the south is often making in the low to mid 20s. Hardly an acceptable wage for someone charged with educating our children.
Many of the high level math students that I knew in college couldn't write an effective two page "book review." They ended up writing a 20 summary and got mad when I got an A and they had a C-. Math isn't the only demonstration of intelligence, everyone is good at something.
I really don't like the side job argument. I've heard people use the same argument for pilots. "You guys only fly 70 hours a month, why don't you work at Sears on your day off....." Careers that involve flying through icing and thunderstorms or educating future leaders shouldn't require outside employment to make ends meet.
I'll give you the pension though, that would be pretty sweet.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
:yeahthat:
No it shouldn't, but like Hacker said, actual societal values of work does not set prices, the market does. And according to the resumes at Colgan, a career that involves flying through icing and thunderstorms is worth $21 at a regional for a new hire pilot.
greaper007
Well-Known Member
That's a good argument except for one thing. That guy is going to fly your family around. If you live in a smaller city like Toledo OH or just about any city these days there's a good chance you'll have to fly on a regional. I wouldn't want to be operated on by a surgeon that couldn't afford to eat or have my family flown by a starving FO or Capt.
s60
Well-Known Member
:yeahthat:
My last boss (non-aviation) told me I was wrong and that it's impossible that people make that little as professional pilots because a friend of his parents or something flew for Delta and made like $300,000. Although he never set foot in the cockpit of an airplane (of any size), he knew better than a CFI who decided not to go to the airlines after learning about the working conditions through friends who worked at these companies.
On a slightly funny, yet sad note, I was also trying to explain ATC (tower, TRACON, enroute) to him and he thought that since I said only a few airports have towers that we don't need any ATC at all.:rotfl:
motormadness24
Well-Known Member
This show should be very interesting.
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
Agreed, some do better, some worse. The median is $39,000 where I live (the South -at least kind of). You can certainly live on the starting pay here, though you won't be getting rich either.
While I wouldn't expect anyone to need a side job, many teachers I know have them. And they do get quite a bit of time off (compared to me anyway).
Should teachers make more? Probably, but the money needs to come from somewhere.
pullup
Homewrecker
The median for my district is $64,000/yr. For 36 weeks of work. I love taxes.
boondr
Penalty Vectorer
Never in my life have I been so grateful for being too lazy to go to college.
Quick life synopsis.
-Lazy high school student lucky enough God/nature decided to grace with some intelligence
-92.5% average; 1460 on SATs(when only 2 sections)
-Wanted to be a pilot but hated the idea of 4+ more years of school.
-Recruiter called said be a US Marine! "Cool I want to be a sniper and kill bad guys!" Rec. -no do something you can take with you as job skill after you get out. (Thanks SSGT Rowans)
-Couldn't be a pilot so I decided to tell them what to do.
Here we are 10+ years later working ATC for the FAA
Moral of the story, being lazy isn't always the worst thing.
But I think that the points made in this thread are all very compelling. Pilots for the reg. do a job that is by every definitions worth more than they get paid for it.
However why in the hell would the Regionals pay more if like its been said when someone quits over wages there are hundreds upon hundreds waiting for that spot at those wages?
I am not sure a strike would work in this market for a Colgan type regional, we're talking what, maybe 450 pilots? I could almost guarantee in this economy there would be that many people out there willing to cross a picket line. Just my opinion.
I am not sure there is a easy solution short of management realizing penny pinching when lives are at stake isn't right.
Quick life synopsis.
-Lazy high school student lucky enough God/nature decided to grace with some intelligence
-92.5% average; 1460 on SATs(when only 2 sections)
-Wanted to be a pilot but hated the idea of 4+ more years of school.
-Recruiter called said be a US Marine! "Cool I want to be a sniper and kill bad guys!" Rec. -no do something you can take with you as job skill after you get out. (Thanks SSGT Rowans)
-Couldn't be a pilot so I decided to tell them what to do.
Here we are 10+ years later working ATC for the FAA
Moral of the story, being lazy isn't always the worst thing.
But I think that the points made in this thread are all very compelling. Pilots for the reg. do a job that is by every definitions worth more than they get paid for it.
However why in the hell would the Regionals pay more if like its been said when someone quits over wages there are hundreds upon hundreds waiting for that spot at those wages?
I am not sure a strike would work in this market for a Colgan type regional, we're talking what, maybe 450 pilots? I could almost guarantee in this economy there would be that many people out there willing to cross a picket line. Just my opinion.
I am not sure there is a easy solution short of management realizing penny pinching when lives are at stake isn't right.
LoadMasterC141
Well-Known Member
Oh this is gonna be a good show!
Interviewer: Pilots make as low as 16k their first year. Isn't that ridiculous?
Cohen: Let me give my standard dumb response, redirecting you to average pay, and that will keep you happy like everyone else.
Interviewer: Yeah I was not born yesterday stupid. I said starting pay, not average pay
----Look on Cohen's face (Oh crap noone ever challenged me what do I say now???) ------PRICELESS.
Interviewer: Pilots make as low as 16k their first year. Isn't that ridiculous?
Cohen: Let me give my standard dumb response, redirecting you to average pay, and that will keep you happy like everyone else.
Interviewer: Yeah I was not born yesterday stupid. I said starting pay, not average pay
----Look on Cohen's face (Oh crap noone ever challenged me what do I say now???) ------PRICELESS.