Flying below traffic pattern altitude

Beaker

Beaker

Well-Known Member
I am interested in analyzing those flying gray areas so that when it comes my time to teach somebody else I will have a good answer. Here is a situation I ran across recently. I have come to my own determination but I would benefit from the experienced view points here on JC.

Situation
The weather at the departure airport exceeds basic VFR weather minima, but the ceiling is low enough to make any flight beyond the immediate vicinity of the airport impractical. However, you are considering if the weather is sufficient for pattern work. Specifically, the ceiling is less than 1500 ft. such that complying with minimum distance from cloud criteria would force you fly below the airport’s traffic pattern altitude of 1000 ft. In addition, the airport is located in a congested area with limited off-airport options in the event of an engine failure and extended downwind legs are known to happen. Is the pattern flight legal and safe?

Applicable Regulations
91.119 Minimum safe altitudes: General
91.155 Basic VFR weather minimums
 
Seems like kind of an absurd scenario. No I'm not doing pattern practice in less than 1500' ceilings; it wouldn't make for good practice when you're starting downwind 100, 200, or 300' low. It would set a bad example for a student about personal minimums. And it would endanger people on the ground. Flying a pattern below TPA isn't illegal, but it is not recommended. I would suggest flying with students using recommended procedure in the AIM most of all for their own safety and a distant second for the ride.
 
You could do pattern work at legal pattern altitude with ceilings less than 1500. If it's class g to 1200 where you are at you must only remain clear of clouds and have one mile visibility. So 1 mile and overcast 1200 you could do pattern work and be legal still flying the pattern at 1000. Some parts of the country if you don't take advantage of this rule you will spend a lot of time not flying hence not earning money
 
Patterns are all kinds of altitudes. If you only do them from 1000', you're doing a disservice. At my GA airport depending on winds and where you're coming from/going you could be starting the pattern anywhere from 900 to 1500ft. Additionally, if I'm flying along at 500' there's not a lot of point in climbing 500 feet to land should it be empty.

Beaker said:
I encountered this specific scenario as a renter getting checked out at a new FBO. The instructor advocated going so long as tower was willing to give a takeoff clearance. I was more skeptical.
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ATC does not necessarily know what rules you operate under or if what you are doing is legal. If I ask for it, they'll clear me for all kinds of illegal things.
 
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Traffic pattern altitudes should be
maintained unless otherwise required by the
applicable distance from cloud criteria (14 CFR
Section 91.155).AIM 4-3-3

There's nothing illegal about flying below the TPA, in fact, that's what you're required by 91.155 to do if you are in that situation. Not saying it's a good idea to launch into it, but you won't be violating any FARs I can think of. Unless of course you're being careless or reckless ;)
 
Inverted25 said:
You could do pattern work at legal pattern altitude with ceilings less than 1500. If it's class g to 1200 where you are at you must only remain clear of clouds and have one mile visibility. So 1 mile and overcast 1200 you could do pattern work and be legal still flying the pattern at 1000. Some parts of the country if you don't take advantage of this rule you will spend a lot of time not flying hence not earning money
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Oh true; never heard of that but you're right. I'm based out of a class D, but knowing I could file/SVFR out and then do pattern ops in G could come in handy this winter.

T/O w/FSII said:
Ask for Special VFR
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I believe special VFR is only to be used when arriving or departing a field. I find it varies controller to controller as to who will give you SVFR for pattern ops. No harm in asking though. ;)
 
BarbieDreamPilot said:
I believe special VFR is only to be used when arriving or departing a field. I find it varies controller to controller as to who will give you SVFR for pattern ops. No harm in asking though. ;)
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There's nothing in the regs or anything other FAA document I'm aware off that says SVFR is only for arrivals and departures. For example, the Controller's Handbook simply says:
==============================
SVFR operations may be authorized for aircraft operating in or transiting a Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E surface area when the primary airport is reporting VFR but the pilot advises that basic VFR cannot be maintained. (my emphasis)
==============================

There probably is a bit of local practice involved in when controllers are willing to issue the clearance but the only regulatory issue is the need to mix with IFR traffic, with priority give to IFR. Agai, from the Controller Hanbook
==============================
SVFR flights may be approved only if arriving and departing IFR aircraft are not delayed.
==============================
 
While I always try to make myself aware of the published TPA, I generally use 1000, though some are 800. With Wx approaching, I used 800 recently as with a tailwind developing it was hard to loose altitude and speed.

I've seen some biplanes do a low circuit at 300-400 agl, sometimes it depends on circumstances, but I generally wouldn't go below 800 AGL.

Alex.
 
CloudNine said:
Traffic pattern altitudes should be
maintained unless otherwise required by the
applicable distance from cloud criteria (14 CFR
Section 91.155).AIM 4-3-3

There's nothing illegal about flying below the TPA, in fact, that's what you're required by 91.155 to do if you are in that situation. Not saying it's a good idea to launch into it, but you won't be violating any FARs I can think of. Unless of course you're being careless or reckless ;)
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The regulatory conundrum I found was in 91.119. For airports in sparsely populated areas there is not an issue, but in congested areas is electing to fly an extended downwind below TPA at less than 1000 AGL considered "necessary" for landing and takeoff?
 
z987k said:
Patterns are all kinds of altitudes. If you only do them from 1000', you're doing a disservice. At my GA airport depending on winds and where you're coming from/going you could be starting the pattern anywhere from 900 to 1500ft.
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I have seen a variety of published TPAs at different airports and for different runways at the same airport. Is the 900 to 1500 variation at your airport based on published TPAs for different runways, or are there operational considerations that make 900 vs. 1500 ft. make sense for the same runway in different conditions? I am a low time guy from the lower 48, so I could use some additional explanation if it is the latter.
 
Beaker said:
I have seen a variety of published TPAs at different airports and for different runways at the same airport. Is the 900 to 1500 variation at your airport based on published TPAs for different runways, or are there operational considerations that make 900 vs. 1500 ft. make sense for the same runway in different conditions? I am a low time guy from the lower 48, so I could use some additional explanation if it is the latter.
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It has to do with a very high volume VFR traffic area where no one is under radar contact(mostly because /X) with 3 other airports in close vicinity.
It's all spelled out in the Supplement, starting on page 85 for Lake Hood and going through quite a few pages for Merrill as well. The altitudes are all mandatory as spelled out in Part 93, Subpart D, even outside the class D and C airspace and talking to no one.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...fic_services/artcc/anchorage/media/AK_Sup.pdf
As you can see depending on the direction you are approaching, could make your TPA different than another person from another direction to the same runway. It's not even that uncommon to have a float plane 300 below you on short final while you're base for the strip.
 
z987k said:
It has to do with a very high volume VFR traffic area where no one is under radar contact(mostly because /X) with 3 other airports in close vicinity.
It's all spelled out in the Supplement, starting on page 85 for Lake Hood and going through quite a few pages for Merrill as well. The altitudes are all mandatory as spelled out in Part 93, Subpart D, even outside the class D and C airspace and talking to no one.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...fic_services/artcc/anchorage/media/AK_Sup.pdf
As you can see depending on the direction you are approaching, could make your TPA different than another person from another direction to the same runway. It's not even that uncommon to have a float plane 300 below you on short final while you're base for the strip.
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Interesting. Thanks.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
There's nothing in the regs or anything other FAA document I'm aware off that says SVFR is only for arrivals and departures. For example, the Controller's Handbook simply says:
==============================
SVFR operations may be authorized for aircraft operating in or transiting a Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E surface area when the primary airport is reporting VFR but the pilot advises that basic VFR cannot be maintained. (my emphasis)
==============================

There probably is a bit of local practice involved in when controllers are willing to issue the clearance but the only regulatory issue is the need to mix with IFR traffic, with priority give to IFR. Agai, from the Controller Hanbook
==============================
SVFR flights may be approved only if arriving and departing IFR aircraft are not delayed.
==============================
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Good to know. My understanding was based on a conversation with the local controller about their conditions for issuing SVFR where she stated it was only for arrivals and departures, but the controller handbook clearly reads otherwise.

I'm still sticking to my guns about following recommended procedure though. I enter every pattern at a 45 to the downwind and I fly patterns at pattern altitude unless wx deteriorates unexpectedly or I'm in part 93 airspace.
 
BarbieDreamPilot said:
Good to know. My understanding was based on a conversation with the local controller about their conditions for issuing SVFR where she stated it was only for arrivals and departures, but the controller handbook clearly reads otherwise.

I'm still sticking to my guns about following recommended procedure though. I enter every pattern at a 45 to the downwind and I fly patterns at pattern altitude unless wx deteriorates unexpectedly or I'm in part 93 airspace.
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You won't get any argument from me about following recommended procedures, although I'm not sure what that has to do with a 45 to downwind at a towered airport.
 
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