Flight Times Question

[SpiceWeasel]

I suppose I'll preface this with "I should probably already know this" but I don't.... so here goes:

Lets say I work for an airline. Our maximum flight hours are as follows:
8 in 24, 30 in 7, 100 in a month, 1000 in a year. Give or take but I'm fairly certain that is the deal. Is this FAA limitation a commercial hours limitation? What if I wanted to work on getting a CFI on my off time (what off time, I know!)? I obviously need to log the time "towards" certificates, ratings, or currency....

And once I get the CFI, could I donate my time (ie. not get paid for it - so that I stay within that company limitation), and therefore (along the lines of the paragraph above), fly in excess of the "paid" flight time hours requirement?

If I'm confusing, let me know!

 

[subpilot]

1.) If you do any personal /training time then it will not count toward your limitations. Only commercial flying counts so you are good to work on your CFI.

2.) If you get paid then it is commercial flying. An FAA opinion has stated that even if you are not paid it can still count as commercial flying because you are being compensated by the flight hours that you log in your logbook.

I would say that if you don't get paid and you don't log it then it is ok. Teaching family and friends would be ok. Other than that you face problems if either the FAA or your airline find out about it.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Ok so at least doing the training would be "ok".... I definitely wouldn't need the hours or money (well that's a stretch but for legality I'd do it as free as could be).

Is this a horrible idea?

Thanks!

 

[gtpilot]

Ok so at least doing the training would be "ok".... I definitely wouldn't need the hours or money (well that's a stretch but for legality I'd do it as free as could be).

Is this a horrible idea?

Thanks!

Might want to be careful...as a safety pilot you should be ok but it's a huge stretch to assume unpaid instruction would not be 'commercial'. You will probably have 50-100 extra hours you can use each year though. Also read the fine print in the company's policies - many prohibit flight instruction and other commercial flying on the side.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Might want to be careful...as a safety pilot you should be ok but it's a huge stretch to assume unpaid instruction would not be 'commercial'. You will probably have 50-100 extra hours you can use each year though. Also read the fine print in the company's policies - many prohibit light instruction and other commercial flying on the side.

I know our FOM prohibits "other commercial flying". The question would be can I get around that by not receiving pay or logging it? I'm not trying to be sneaky or hide it I just wanted to help out a friend. I bet by reading this thought it looks like I am trying to be sneaky. Funny how that works lol!

 

[gtpilot]

Hmm, light instruction, flight instruction? Sure, I can spell! Personally, I don't even think about crossing the 1k mark, though I do break company policy to instruct a few friends when needed. The company will never know but I can say from personal experience that if the FAA sends you a friendly LOA, they will look at everything you've done recently to try to nail you!

 

[BobDDuck]

If you sign somebody's log book next to their dual received, don't you sort of have to log it in your logbook to make it legal?

 

[SpiceWeasel]

If you sign somebody's log book next to their dual received, don't you sort of have to log it in your logbook to make it legal?

I'm not a CFI.... I don't know!

 

[woutlaw]

This question came up over on Flightinfo a short while back.

The argument was made there that flight instruction does not constitute "commercial flying" and therefore didn't count against any 121/135 flight time restrictions.

Certainly flight instruction isn't "commercial flying" or you'd need more than a third-class (or, in some cases, no medical at all) to do it. (Which seems at logical odds to requiring a commercial certificate along with your CFI certificate.)

You're being paid to teach, and not flying for compensation or hire. Whether you log it or not doesn't change anything.

Of course, the whole thread quickly dissolved into a pissing match, at which point I stopped paying attention.

Personally, I'd just call the local FSDO and ask for their interpretation, then check with my company.

 

[E6BAV8R]

If you sign somebody's log book next to their dual received, don't you sort of have to log it in your logbook to make it legal?

Not necessarily.

I'd look at it like this: If it takes a commercial license to be able to do the flight than it is a commercial flight. Getting paid or logging hours doesn't make any difference.

....and yes, you have to have a commercial license, and it must be on your person, to flight instruct

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Not necessarily.

I'd look at it like this: If it takes a commercial license to be able to do the flight than it is a commercial flight. Getting paid or logging hours doesn't make any difference.

....and yes, you have to have a commercial license, and it must be on your person, to flight instruct

Gotta love the regs, huh? Interpretation is a b$. I like the idea of the FSDO. Since they're the one that'll be interested in talking to me if something's messed up lol

 

[Ian_J]

If you sign somebody's log book next to their dual received, don't you sort of have to log it in your logbook to make it legal?

Not really.

61.51 says you only need to log for a certificate, rating, or for currency.

It also says:

(h) Logging training time. (1) A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.
(2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and must:
(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized instructor; and
(ii) Include a description of the training given, the length of the training lesson, and the authorized instructor's signature, certificate number, and certificate expiration date.

And for flight instructor records it says:

§ 61.189 Flight instructor records.

(a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.
(b) A flight instructor must maintain a record in a logbook or a separate document that contains the following:
(1) The name of each person whose logbook or student pilot certificate that instructor has endorsed for solo flight privileges, and the date of the endorsement; and
(2) The name of each person that instructor has endorsed for a knowledge test or practical test, and the record shall also indicate the kind of test, the date, and the results.
(c) Each flight instructor must retain the records required by this section for at least 3 years.

So the CFI has to do a lot of signing in the students logbook, but unless it's an endorsement for solo privileges or a written/ practical test, the CFI is not required to log the time or keep records.

 

[moxiepilot]

So the CFI has to do a lot of signing in the students logbook, but unless it's an endorsement for solo privileges or a written/ practical test, the CFI is not required to log the time or keep records.

True, but if something should happen to the student being trained and the FSDO gets involved they are going to look at the students logbook. And if this guy is giving instruction it's going to have his sig.

To the first poster - Just because it's not in your logbook to keep it out of the eyes of your company doesn't make it right.
Rules are rules no matter how you bend them. Company policy says no other commercial stuff, and that includes CIFing paid or unpaid - not only that but youre doing a job that should be paid -

and you guys whine about the low wages of FOs.... me! me! me! i'll fly your plane for free!

what goes around comes around

 

[Ian_J]

True, but if something should happen to the student being trained and the FSDO gets involved they are going to look at the students logbook. And if this guy is giving instruction it's going to have his sig.

Absolutely. No argument there.

 

[Malko]

I know our FOM prohibits "other commercial flying". The question would be can I get around that by not receiving pay or logging it? I'm not trying to be sneaky or hide it I just wanted to help out a friend. I bet by reading this thought it looks like I am trying to be sneaky. Funny how that works lol!

Or by taking cash only... I have heard of pilots at the red-tailed mothership doing that

 

[SpiceWeasel]

True, but if something should happen to the student being trained and the FSDO gets involved they are going to look at the students logbook. And if this guy is giving instruction it's going to have his sig.

To the first poster - Just because it's not in your logbook to keep it out of the eyes of your company doesn't make it right.
Rules are rules no matter how you bend them. Company policy says no other commercial stuff, and that includes CIFing paid or unpaid - not only that but youre doing a job that should be paid -

and you guys whine about the low wages of FOs.... me! me! me! i'll fly your plane for free!

what goes around comes around

To "moxiepilot": You're judging me for not wanting to charge a good friend of mine to get some instruction. I don't really want to get him (or her) any ratings necessarily at this point. I absolutely would charge for the work if I didn't know a person but I don't see what good it does to charge a friend.

Or by taking cash only... I have heard of pilots at the red-tailed mothership doing that

I guess the simple answer is no. I suppose I could just sit right seat in an airplane with my current ratings and just let 'em fly. That way it's in no way confused as an instructional activity. They buy the plane I sit there and make sure they don't F* up but I log all time as PIC from the right seat. For purposes you might almost say they "observed" from that seat.