Flight Review - Logging PIC

Dazzler

Well-Known Member
So my flight review expired in December 2008, and I took a flight review today and got signed off. My instructor did not fill out PIC time in my logbook. I understand I could not ACT as PIC during the flight, but I would've thought I could log it. Am I wrong?
 
So my flight review expired in December 2008, and I took a flight review today and got signed off. My instructor did not fill out PIC time in my logbook. I understand I could not ACT as PIC during the flight, but I would've thought I could log it. Am I wrong?

No question, you log PIC.
 
You can log PIC while you're recieving instruction as long as you're already rated to fly the aircraft you're recieving instruction in. For instance, you get to log all of your IFR training as PIC time.
 
You can log PIC while you're recieving instruction as long as you're already rated to fly the aircraft you're recieving instruction in.
(ahem)...all that time that you are the sole manipulator of all the flight controls, that is.
 
You can log PIC while you're recieving instruction as long as you're already rated to fly the aircraft you're recieving instruction in. For instance, you get to log all of your IFR training as PIC time.

Careful. You can log PIC time for your IFR training except when you're in actual conditions. At that point, you're not rated to fly in IMC, so you can't log PIC.
 
Careful. You can log PIC time for your IFR training except when you're in actual conditions. At that point, you're not rated to fly in IMC, so you can't log PIC.

That's debatable, if not flat out WRONG :). This is all I'm going to post on this thread, because I don't want to get sucked into a long winded debate about it, but the FAA has spoken:

To log PIC time:

61.51(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private,
or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight
time during which that person --

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the
pilot is rated;

Were you not 'rated' in the aircraft?

To log instrument time:

61.51(g) Logging instrument flight time. (1) A person may log instrument
time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely
by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight
conditions.

Neither paragraph says anything about needing to have an instrument rating;
or even about being qualified to ACT as PIC in the aircraft.

You do have to be rated. In other words, if you are a private pilot with a
Single-Engine Land rating, you cannot log PIC time in a Multi-Engine
aircraft (or a balloon, glider, etc).

From a CC opinion (6/3/1999):

"14 CFR section 61.51(e) governs the logging of pilot-in-command time.
This section provides, in pertinent part, that a private pilot may log
pilot-in-command time for that flight time during which that person is the
sole manipulator of the controls of an AIRCRAFT FOR WHICH THE PILOT IS
RATED. (Emphasis added)

The term "rated," as used under 14 CFR section 61.51(e), refers to the
pilot holding the appropriate aircraft ratings (category, class, and type,
if a type rating is required). These ratings are listed under 14 CFR
section 61.5 and are placed on the pilot certificate.

Therefore, based on the scenario given to Mr. Lynch, a private pilot may
log pilot-in-command time, in a complex or high performance airplane, for
those portions of the flight when he or she is the sole manipulator of the
controls because the aircraft is being operated is single-engine land and
the private pilot holds a single-engine land rating. Note, while the
private pilot may log this time as pilot-in-command time in accordance with
14 CFR section 61.51(e), he or she may not act as the pilot in command
unless he or she has the appropriate endorsement as required under 14 CFR
section 61.31."

"In your third question you ask "[d]uring instrument training, how
shall a VFR Private Pilot log the following flight time:
Pilot-In-Command time, Simulated Instrument time, and Actual
Instrument time, when that pilot is ...
A) ... under the hood?
B) ...in actual instrument conditions?
C) ... under the hood in actual instrument conditions?"
The answer is the VFR private pilot may log all of the flight time
you described as PIC flight time under FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i)
if he was the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for
which he is rated."
 
That's debatable, if not flat out WRONG :). This is all I'm going to post on this thread, because I don't want to get sucked into a long winded debate about it, but the FAA has spoken:

yup. all my IFR students have logged actual IMC as PIC (the CFII get to log actual too!)
 
For now I stand corrected. I don't know what the complex and/or high performance endorsement has to do with with the instrument rating debate, but I'd say you've proven me wrong. That said, I wouldn't sign off a flight for a student that logged PIC with instrument time concurrently unless they were instrument rated. I've got no problem with someone logging PIC without a complex or high performance endorsement, but without me they can't take that single engine airplane into IMC if they don't already have an instrument rating.
 
For now I stand corrected. I don't know what the complex and/or high performance endorsement has to do with with the instrument rating debate, but I'd say you've proven me wrong. That said, I wouldn't sign off a flight for a student that logged PIC with instrument time concurrently unless they were instrument rated. I've got no problem with someone logging PIC without a complex or high performance endorsement, but without me they can't take that single engine airplane into IMC if they don't already have an instrument rating.

so your saying that, regardless of the regs, youre not going to let your instrument students log PIC in IMC? What about simulated instrument (as PIC) while on an IFR clearance? They cant do that without you in the plane either, so whats the difference?
 
The difference is one situation can be done with a safety pilot and one can't. They can log simulated IMC with a safety pilot, IFR clearance or otherwise. In that situation they don't need to have a CFII in the other seat.

They can't log actual without a CFII sitting next to them. As far as I'm concerned, the student does not have the required additional rating (yet) to be a PIC in conditions that require the logging of instrument time.
 
The difference is one situation can be done with a safety pilot and one can't.

Remember, i was talking about flying on an IFR clearance. Unless the safety pilot is instrument rated, they still cannot accept an IFR clearance... even if its a CAVU day!

You let your student log PIC if you are flying under IFR with the hood on, but you wont let him log PIC in actual. Your reasoning doesnt make sense.

They can't log actual without a CFII sitting next to them.

Correct, but all time spent under the hood or in the clouds with a CFII is logable as PIC for the student. Its clearly spelled out in 61.51 you should do a little reg review before not letting your students log legal flight time
 
As far as I'm concerned, the student does not have the required additional rating (yet) to be a PIC in conditions that require the logging of instrument time.
There's a difference between being PIC, and logging PIC. You don't have to be acting (or qualified to act) as PIC to log it as such.
 
Remember, i was talking about flying on an IFR clearance. Unless the safety pilot is instrument rated, they still cannot accept an IFR clearance... even if its a CAVU day!

I misread that part. Obviously you must be instrument rated to accept an IFR clearance.

Like I said, I feel there is a difference between simulated and actual and how I sign off a flight for a student. And I'm well aware of the difference between acting as PIC and logging PIC. I've read the regs, and if they really want that extra 3 hours of PIC signed off in their logbook, they can fly with you SIUav8er ;).
 
I misread that part. Obviously you must be instrument rated to accept an IFR clearance.

Like I said, I feel there is a difference between simulated and actual and how I sign off a flight for a student. And I'm well aware of the difference between acting as PIC and logging PIC. I've read the regs, and if they really want that extra 3 hours of PIC signed off in their logbook, they can fly with you SIUav8er ;).

Send 'em over! Ill make sure they get every hour they pay for!
 
I don't know what the complex and/or high performance endorsement has to do with with the instrument rating debate,
Just that 61.51 permits a pilot with the appropriate =aircraft= ratings to log PIC time whenever the sole manipulator of the controls. Period. Nothing else counts.

Doesn't matter whether we're talking about endorsements, condition ratings, medical currency, flight review currency, or whatever. None of them count.

That's the relationship. I think the CFI materials refer to it as "correlation."
Dazzler said:
So my flight review expired in December 2008, and I took a flight review today and got signed off. My instructor did not fill out PIC time in my logbook. I understand I could not ACT as PIC during the flight, but I would've thought I could log it. Am I wrong?
As others have said, you're not wrong. Your instructor may have simply forgotten to add it. Or your instructor may be one of the many that do not understand the logging rules - it's not uncommon, although becoming less so.
 
That said, I wouldn't sign off a flight for a student that logged PIC with instrument time concurrently unless they were instrument rated.

I've read the regs, and if they really want that extra 3 hours of PIC signed off in their logbook, they can fly with you SIUav8er ;).

Have you read this one?

§ 61.189 Flight instructor records.

(a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.

If you gave someone training, you don't have the option to not sign their logbook. You also don't get to make up logging rules for your students. That logbook belongs to the student and it is their responsibility to ensure it is correct.
 
That logbook belongs to the student and it is their responsibility to ensure it is correct.

Yes.

All the time as a student pilot drills into the student that somehow the logbook belongs to the instructor. It's part of growing up as a pilot to realize that the logbook is yours, and it's part of the mutual respect between instructor and student that the instructor acknowledge the same.
 
Have you read this one?



If you gave someone training, you don't have the option to not sign their logbook. You also don't get to make up logging rules for your students. That logbook belongs to the student and it is their responsibility to ensure it is correct.

Ian J, I strongly disagree. As a gold seal CFI, I've certainly read 61.189.

61.51(g) Logging instrument flight time. (1) A person may log instrument
time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely
by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight
conditions.

As I read 61.51, a person may log instrument time, they aren't required to. And if I make a condition of my instruction that they cannot act as PIC in actual conditions, then I would say I can dictate how and what they put in their logbook for a given flight that I sign off. Otherwise I didn't instruct them. They're still getting a good bang for the buck, logging total time and logging actual.

Besides, if something happens during one of these instructional flights, be it a deviation or god forbid worse, they won't be coming to look and see if the student was "the sole manipulator of the controls." The only reason the aircraft was in actual conditions was because it was permitted by my instrument rating. If that isn't pilot-in-command responsibility I don't know what is.

Thank you for all the responses btw, this is a very interesting discussion and one of the reasons I joined this forum.
 
Besides, if something happens during one of these instructional flights, be it a deviation or god forbid worse, they won't be coming to look and see if the student was "the sole manipulator of the controls." The only reason the aircraft was in actual conditions was because it was permitted by my instrument rating. If that isn't pilot-in-command responsibility I don't know what is.
This is exactly why there is always discusion about being responsible for the flight and sole manipulator. You as Johny CFI are the master and commander of the ship. That's why you log PIC. You are responsible for the safety of the aircraft not the student. That alone should mootinize all the arguments I've seen. The student has no responsibilities to merit loging PIC...but he IS Sole Manipulator and can log PIC. Again why not just let them log it? I don't see any liability.
 
And if I make a condition of my instruction that they cannot act as PIC in actual conditions, then I would say I can dictate how and what they put in their logbook for a given flight that I sign off.

You're still confusing the concepts of acting as PIC with logging PIC. Go back up and read Alchemy's post. You're wrong on this issue and it's your job as instructor to be right.

Here's a letter of interp:

Logging PIC in Instrument Conditions.PDF
 
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