Flight Into Known Icing

stuckingfk

stuckingfk

Well-Known Member
I suppose every pilot that lives where the temps get cold you have to deal with icing sooner or later.

My question is, what do you consider known icing? Specifically snow.

Thanks
 
Low temperature/dewpoint spread and low RAT (in the air) or SAT (on the ground).

However, of course depending on the aircraft, there are times that you'll have your engine anti-ice on in flight where you don't require airfoil anti-ice. In visible moister with a RAT (ram air temp) of 10C or below, you'll have to use engine anti-ice, but unless you're building ice on reliable aircraft indicators of icing conditions, you can normally leave the airfoil anti-ice on.

Even more debateable, does the DC-9 series of aircraft have airfoil 'anti' ice or 'de' ice?
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In visible moister

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Sorry Doug, you have busted me before, now I have to return the favor.
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moisture
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Sorry, thinking about Duncan Hines chocolate cake as I was typing that!
 
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My question is, what do you consider known icing? Specifically snow.

Thanks

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pireps are "known conditions". Other than conditions that indicate current freezing rain it seems like everything else falls into the grey area. If you fly in visible moisture below 10c and nothing happens the FAA could care less, but if you ice up and crash then they'd probably say "pilot flew into icing condition" and yank yer tickut. Im a noob though so Im looking for a good definition myself.
 
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airmets Z, while forecasts, are considered known icing conditions.

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See that is where I disagree. I specifically remember from our Avit Safety class that flying in snow isn't "known icing."

Does the FAA have anything on this and would anyone know where I could find this?
 
Chicago AIRMET, prepared on the 7th at 2:45pm CST (2045Z).
AIRMET Zulu update 4 for ice and freezing level valid until the 7th at
9:00pm CST (0300Z).
AIRMET -- ice
For North Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota, Nebraska, Iowa, Kansas,
Missouri, Lake Superior, Wisconsin
From 70 miles west-northwest of International Falls MN [INL]
to Thunder Bay [YQT VOR]
to Dubuque IA [DBQ]
to Decatur IL [DEC]
to 50 miles east of Butler MO [BUM]
to 40 miles west-southwest of Pawnee City [PWE VOR]
to 40 miles west of Dupree [DPR VOR]
to 50 miles north-northwest of Williston ND [ISN]
to 70 miles west-northwest of International Falls MN [INL]
Occasional moderate rime icing in clouds below 8,000 feet. Conditions
continuing beyond 9pm CST (03Z) ending 3am CST (09Z).

So if I am in Iowa and I fly in the clouds tonight does that mean I flew into known icing "(Occasional moderate rime icing in clouds below 8,000 feet.)"? And does anyone actually care unless you crash?
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So if I am in Iowa and I fly in the clouds tonight does that mean I flew into known icing?"

[/ QUOTE ]Yes.

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does anyone actually care unless you crash?
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Yes
 
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My question is, what do you consider known icing? Specifically snow.

Thanks

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You can't get icing in snow. The moisture is frozen at the surface, and you know that there will not be an inversion because if there was the precip would be in the form of hail or frezing rain.
 
So In the winter nobody in a cold location is allowed to fly actual pretty much?

Could you explain further your second yes? Because I've never had FSS or Clearance try to stop me?
Im just a confused noob.
 
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Could you explain further your second yes? Because I've never had FSS or Clearance try to stop me?
Im just a confused noob.

[/ QUOTE ] If you get ramp checked after flying, even if you don't crash, you can get in some major trouble.
 
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You can't get icing in snow. The moisture is frozen at the surface, and you know that there will not be an inversion because if there was the precip would be in the form of hail or frezing rain.

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You can get icing (not sure if it was actually ice, but the snow was building up on my wings in ice-like fashion) in snow, but it has to be very close to the freezing temp. I've gotten some pretty bad "ice" from flying through some wet snow right at the FZL.
 
No one will question you until you either declare an emergency because of icing or the plane falls from the sky (just like that C208 the other day in KSUN).

They don't ask you a lot of questions when you call or when you are flying, they assume you know the risks and the regs and are opperating as such.

91.527 states no pilot may fly-
(a)under IFR into known or forecast icing conditions; or
(c) unless you have the proper and certified ice protection

Anyway, you can violate a ton of regs and no one will ever know. The system is set up on the honor system to a degree. If you look at every reg as a safety guideline, they are all just trying to keep you safe and they hope you comply.
 
91.527 only applies to large or turbine powered multi-engine airplanes, or fractional ownership program aircraft

It is true that you can violate regs left and right if you want to, but you can still get in trouble if ramp checked.
 
There are times you can fly into 'known' icing if you have a really good excuse. Recently, I was flying from phoenix to riverside, ca in a Seminole (with no icing equip), and decided to take a southern route (San Diego) to avoid a Sigmet for turbulence on the normal route. About 3/4 of the way along, a Mooney about 5 minutes ahead of us, on the same airway, and at the same altitude (6000 ft) filed an urgent pirep stating that he was building severe icing, so much so that his boots were unable to remove it. This was the first report of icing below 8000 ft on our route, and resulted from the fact that the storm we were flying into was advancing much faster than forecast. We were given the option to divert to an airport behind us (all of whose ceilings had dropped below 200 ft agl), or climb. We choose to climb, and did not break out of the clouds until 11500 ft. When we did, we had built 1 1/2 inches of rime ice, so we kept climbing to 13000 just to be safe and continued on our way. When we got into riverside, we were ramp checked, since we had informed ATC of the icing issue. I explained to him what happened and, after consulting with FSS and ATC, the inspector let us go, stating that we had made the best decision, because, even though after the pirep one could have considered our actions as flying into known icing, we filed with a 'proper and timely' weather report and dealt with the situation as best as possible. So, the whole point of the story is, if you know that there is a known icing condition before you takeoff, don't. If one 'pops up' when you're flying, be damn careful about what you decide to do, because you could get really screwed if you chose the wrong option.
 
Must be some turbo seminole!

I never knew one that could climb with an inch and a half of ice.

You must have prayed a lot.
 
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So In the winter nobody in a cold location is allowed to fly actual pretty much?

[/ QUOTE ]It depends on where the freezing level is. If there is enough altitude below that level, you may fly IMC. Cautiously, I might add.

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Could you explain further your second yes? Because I've never had FSS or Clearance try to stop me?
Im just a confused noob.

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FSS and Clearance delivery are not enforcement agencies. Neither of them know if your aircraft is certified for flight in icing. If an FAA inspector happens to be at the local airport and witnesses your flight, he will be VERY interested.

I personally have listened on the frequency as PA-28 iced over the mountains. It's not a pleasant thing to hear. The weather was IFR and freezing level on the ground. We wondered what he was doing there in the first place.
 
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