Flight engineers

S

SharkFisher

Well-Known Member
I have a general question about working for an airline such as Fedex, American, or United (international destinations). Take fedex for an example: Am I right to say that a new pilot will get to fly for every international Fedex destination without being delayed? If you worked for an airline such as United flying an A320, it will take some time to fly to "far away destinations"? I know that you will still fly to countries such as Mexico, and the Carribeans etc. Fedex requires new candidates to have a flight engineer rating. So would this be a disadvantage if you could find a job at another airline without having to go through the FE? And what are the advantages? If I am highly interested in being an international pilot, would Fedex be a good choice even if I had to go through the FE? And usually how long does it take to upgrade to 1st officer? And finally does FE time count as real flight time?
 
You don't have to have a FE rating to apply at FEDEX

If you look at the site, you'll see that you need to have the rating or the written.
 
Here is a, not so simple, answer.

A little history of the FE is in order. Many many years ago, circa 1930s, airliners had Captain, Co-pilot, Flight Engineer, Radio Operator, and Navigator positions for the longer range international type flying. With advances in technology the Radio Operator and Navigator positions were combined into the other three leaving us with the Captain, Co-pilot, and FE. At that time the FE was not a pilot position. It wasn't until the mid 1950s that ALPA started advocating that the FE also be pilot qualified. This, along with other manning issues, led to a rift between ALPA and the pilots of American Airlines. With American Airlines eventually separating from ALPA in 1963. The early jets; B707, DC-8, B727 all had FE positions. It wasn't until the 737 and BAC 111s that the 2 man cockpits were introduced in jet aircraft. All larger international type aircraft such as the 747, DC-10, and L-1011, even though newer generation, still had the FE position. It wasn't until the 757/767 came out in the early 80s that a large jet was built without an FE position. Most airlines still had a majority of aircraft with the FE position.

A pilot looking at going to a major airline back in the 70s and 80s needed to have the FE written completed. It was very rare to go to a major airline and not start out as an FE. In fact, when I was first looking into a career in the airlines in the mid 80s it was considered pretty good if you only had to be an FE for 5 years before upgrading to First Officer.

No two airlines are the same in regards to career progression and it is constantly changing. What we can say today for Fedex, American, United, etc will be vastly different in ten years time. If you truly want to fly international then Fedex and UPS would be good choices. United, American, Delta, Continental, Northwest, and a few others would also be good. Right now Fedex and UPS would be the two top airlines to have a career at as their pay and benefits packages are superior to all the rest. United, Delta, and Northwest are in bankruptcy.

International flying may sound glamorous and fun, but it is very fatigueing and shortens your life. At some airlines you may be lucky to stay landing current averaging only 1 landing per month. For those reasons you may want to choose an airline that has a little of both. That way you can go do international for a few years to get it out of your system and then move back to domestic which is so much easier on the body.


TP
 
I was looking at payscales awhile back and I noticed that some of the airlines that still have FE positions pay the FE's more than the FO's. Anyone know why?
 
Contracts.

One upon a time, there were PFE's or FE's without bidding rights to FO or CA.

Also, with some contracts, FO pay is a percentage of CA rates, and perhaps FE rates were based off of a percentage of CA rates as well.

So since the CA on a 747 with some airlines paid significantly more than 727 CA's, "logically" the 747 FE rate may be higher than a 727 FO rate.

But that's just off the top of my head.
 
I'll pick where Doug left off .... there are lots of airlines and cargo operators that still employ FEs. QANTAS has FEs on its B743s, for example. Once the 'classics' go, so do the FEs. They don't become SOs or FOs.

Many of the lesser known cargo operations flying DC10s, 747 classics, DC-8s, B707s, & B727s obviously have FEs and these folks would primarily be professional FEs. I suspect they also would be 'greybeards', and as the number of airlines with aircraft requiring professional 'plumbers' declines, I'd say new entrants to the industry will rarely make a career out of being an FE.

By the way, SharkFisher, you're a Sri Lanka fan? Are you from Sri Lanka? Is that Sangakkara in your avatar?

Cheers
 
By the way, SharkFisher, you're a Sri Lanka fan? Are you from Sri Lanka? Is that Sangakkara in your avatar?

Cheers

Yes I am from and am a Sri Lankan fan of course! My fav Aussie players were definitely were the Waugh's. And I haven't seen a cricket match in 5 years! It's actually Jayasuriya on my avatar.
 
Timmypig said:
I'll pick where Doug left off .... there are lots of airlines and cargo operators that still employ FEs. QANTAS has FEs on its B743s, for example. Once the 'classics' go, so do the FEs. They don't become SOs or FOs.
Click to expand...

I don't know that that's always true, I did work with a guy that was a 72 FE until 9/11, when the 72's went away he got bumped to a 73 FO.
Maybe it's not common, I don't know.
 
Philip said:
I don't know that that's always true, I did work with a guy that was a 72 FE until 9/11, when the 72's went away he got bumped to a 73 FO.
Maybe it's not common, I don't know.
Click to expand...

He's probably referring to the fact that Qantas still employs Professional Flight Engineers. i.e. FE's that have no pilot certificates. So when the Classic 747 fleet retires, so do the rest of the engineers.

When ATA retired thier 727 fleet very suddenly after 9/11, many of thier professional engineers were furloughed while pilot hiring continued. Some of the engineers went out and got pilot certificates and built time, then were offered FO seats on the 737, 757, or L-1011.

At my company, we employ PFE's. Almost all of them have no pilot credentials. Some do, and they will have the opportuinity to upgrade if the company desires to issue an FE to FO bid.

But all pilot newhires go to the FO seat, not to the panel, like most US Majors did.
 
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