Flight control malfunction

firebirdswm said:
Sounds as if the flight controls were working properly, but the trim was backwards. I've never included the trim in my "flight controls free and correct" check, although it seems that might be prudent.
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Boris Badenov said:
550 hours in your profile. Everyone's frickin Chuck Yeager at 550 hours. Thank God all the CFIs are around to remind us of how to fly an airplane. I'm sure nothing bad will ever happen to you, Maverick.
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PositionAndHold said:
Yes, I realize a cheiften isn't transport category, but having never flown one I can't assume you can see the controls. Remember, less talky, more reeedy. I mostly lurk on here as I KNOW I have a ton to learn and less to comment on. Even with my ATP and type.
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mshunter said:
Do us all a favor and stick to flying cessnas. I fly a Chieftain and you can't see the elevator from the cockpit. What would you suggest, put the parking brake on and me go to the back, open the door and look. Or maybe freak out all my pax and open up the crew door and have a peek?

I just love it when people armchair stuf like this. You know why I don't tell Boris how to fly a Mitsu? Because he does and I don't. Sheesh!
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Thank you everyone I will forever be humbled because of your great remarks.

Speaking from experience here not of flying the airplane but checking the rigging of all the flight controls on the ground before flight on the Chieftain. This was the original aircraft I quoted and if you go back and re-read everything I did not say anything about any other type of aircraft. Not sure why everyone started adding things about Mitsu's, Lear's, and transport category aircraft I know very little about since I am not typed in them.

Let me give you an example of what I have observed being done for the Chieftain so you know I am not trying to blow smoke up peoples butts. The flight controls were put in a known position and held there by a seatbelt. This way you can see which way the controls are deflecting before you get in the cockpit. As for the trim again I observed them putting the trim in a neutral position and then adjusting it up and down to check deflection. Again this takes a bit of time and I know that when operating normally it is difficult to take the extra time to do these checks.

I've even seen a US Air captain checking the trim on a 737 because the indicator and the outside markings were not in agreement.

So please in the future I know where I stand in the jetcareers pecking order and I don't need to be dumped on because I am only a 900 hour instructor.

Thank you
 
Another thing to point out is that a backwards trim is a somewhat easier thing to miss as the way it works is sort of backwards. The concept of operation, as we all know, is pretty simple, but it's just backwards enough that a hurried, fatigued, or preoccupied human brain could easily look right at it and not notice something wrong. Which I would imagine is how it made it out of the mx shop like that.
 
jtrain609 said:
Ask AF one morning about how his trim was rigged backwards in the Chieftain once.

Dude is lucky to be alive, but Amflight is also lucky that it happened to one of their best pilots.
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That explains why in ground they go over in detail on the -350 and -310 where the trim locations should be.
 
Just finished reading an article in February 2010 edition of AOPA Pilot about a guy whose C-185 lost aileron and most eleveator control. Interesting read and fortunatly he was able to survive.
 
Cessnaflyer said:
Thank you everyone I will forever be humbled because of your great remarks.

Speaking from experience here not of flying the airplane but checking the rigging of all the flight controls on the ground before flight on the Chieftain. This was the original aircraft I quoted and if you go back and re-read everything I did not say anything about any other type of aircraft. Not sure why everyone started adding things about Mitsu's, Lear's, and transport category aircraft I know very little about since I am not typed in them.

Let me give you an example of what I have observed being done for the Chieftain so you know I am not trying to blow smoke up peoples butts. The flight controls were put in a known position and held there by a seatbelt. This way you can see which way the controls are deflecting before you get in the cockpit. As for the trim again I observed them putting the trim in a neutral position and then adjusting it up and down to check deflection. Again this takes a bit of time and I know that when operating normally it is difficult to take the extra time to do these checks.

I've even seen a US Air captain checking the trim on a 737 because the indicator and the outside markings were not in agreement.

So please in the future I know where I stand in the jetcareers pecking order and I don't need to be dumped on because I am only a 900 hour instructor.

Thank you
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Dude, you're a riot. Seriously, I run the wheel a little to make sure there's freedom of movement, and make sure its not jammed in one position or the other when I do my walk around, but beyond that, if the trim is rigged backwards there's not really any simple way to check it. If the takeoff indication is correct, you should be able to fly the airplane around the patch to fix the problem. About the only way to check if the trim is working correctly is to run the thing all the way forward, then run it all the way back while going outside to check to see if it moves in the right position. You'd make a habit of that right up to the point where you forget to reset the trim before takeoff, and then have the thing try to fly off, or be frantically rolling the electric trim back trying to pick an artificially heavy nosewheel off the ground.

My advice? Set everything up in the cockpit so that the airplane will fly. Don't do any settings that will make the first 30 seconds of flying difficult or somehow more stressful than they need to be if you screw something up. What I mean by that is no abnormal flap settings, or fuel selectors turned completely off if there's a chance that through some idiocy, I might try to take off in a configuration that'll make life difficult.
 
scooter2525 said:
That explains why in ground they go over in detail on the -350 and -310 where the trim locations should be.
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Yeah they've been doing that for a long time, mostly because nobody trusts (or should trust) the trim indicators in those aircraft.

And with that, if you think about it, if the trim was SET in the proper position for that check, you'd have NO idea if it was going to run in the proper direction. The only way you'd find out on that one would be if you saw the trim was set properly, spun the wheel, went back to the elevator to check it again and THEN realized "Huh...it's...moving in the wrong direction!?"

A lot of heads rolled after this incident.
 
ColoradoPilot said:
I do find it interesting that so many NTSB reports blame the pilot (even if in part) for anything thatbcould POSSIBLY be seen or checked. Saw it once on a cracked manifold incident. Pilot "should" have seen it on a preflight.

So another question, has anyone ever checked the or trim for proper operation prior to a flight?
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Yes, a manual electric trim check is required (push switch up, elevator trims down, trim wheel moves appropriately, mash interrupt switch, and so on) on G1000-fitted 172s. Have I actually looked at the trim tab in motion? No. Perhaps I should. But I can actually see it. Cockpit indications only. I suppose you could run the wheel a ways with the elevator at full up so you can see the tab from the front...I guess...

Believe it or not, some of us low-timers are actually aware that you can't see flight controls in a lot of big airplanes. ;)

My advice? Set everything up in the cockpit so that the airplane will fly. Don't do any settings that will make the first 30 seconds of flying difficult or somehow more stressful than they need to be if you screw something up. What I mean by that is no abnormal flap settings, or fuel selectors turned completely off if there's a chance that through some idiocy, I might try to take off in a configuration that'll make life difficult.
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It's too bad I can't make this: :yeahthat: the size of the screen.
 
BaronPete said:
This is nothing short of awesome. Obviously, not the fact that it was him with a SAM, but the fact that crew landed it. Kudos to them!
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Sidenote: this airplane is *still* sitting at BIAP. Paint's been stripped and I believe they've been scalping it for parts, but she remains there today.
 
I remember seeing a TLC special on what looked like a MD-80 that had its elevator screw break and essentially loose all elevator authority. They spent like 2 hours doing aggressive climbs and dives. Another pilot made visual and reported the aircraft inverted at one point. They eventually crashed with no survivors. This is by far the scariest scenario I could imagine as a pilot.
 
intern_mike said:
I remember seeing a TLC special on what looked like a MD-80 that had its elevator screw break and essentially loose all elevator authority. They spent like 2 hours doing aggressive climbs and dives. Another pilot made visual and reported the aircraft inverted at one point. They eventually crashed with no survivors. This is by far the scariest scenario I could imagine as a pilot.
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That was Alaska 261.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Airlines_Flight_261
 
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