Flaring too late (or not at all!)

Dazzler

Dazzler

Well-Known Member
Any tips on how to teach someone who tends not to flare the aircraft on landing - thereby landing nose-wheel first into the runway if I weren't to intervene?

I've suggested looking down the end of the runway at about 10 feet off the ground, and adding back pressure, but the student tends to just "freeze" on the controls and keeps descending without starting a flare!

I demonstrated the landing "picture" several times, but to no avail.
 
Dazzler said:
Any tips on how to teach someone who tends not to flare the aircraft on landing - thereby landing nose-wheel first into the runway if I weren't to intervene?

I've suggested looking down the end of the runway at about 10 feet off the ground, and adding back pressure, but the student tends to just "freeze" on the controls and keeps descending without starting a flare!

I demonstrated the landing "picture" several times, but to no avail.
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Hey Bro :)
I am not a CFI, but I am a student pilot and I have the same problem. My CFI suggested the same thing ( looking at the end of the runway ) I think that's the best way to do It.
It just takes time. I am still not good at landing but I feel I am doing better after each landing.
another thing is have him/her do lots of chair flying. It really really helps. If you can call for 10 feet and 5 feet for him.

good luck
 
More slow flight, then have them try and get down to the runway and not land but see how close they can get. If they are doing that with little or no power and came in at the right airspeed they usually seem to touch down and land perfectly by accident. That is when the bell goes off and they say "ohhh".
 
From what I've noticed, this problem often comes with the student not wanting to fly blindly for a few seconds before touchdown. They might not be comfortable with raising the nose high enough to block their view of the runway. Although it won't cure the problem entirely, sometimes having them sit on an extra cushion can help. I learned that trick from flying with a petite, probably 5' 2" girl. Of course, if your student is reasonably tall, that can't be the issue.

As has been already mentioned, demonstrating the "picture" helps, looking further down the runway helps, doing more slow flight helps, and just being patient and waiting for it to "click" in their mind helps.

In addition to all that, I found a good way to give students the proper sight picture for touchdown is to have them sit in the cockpit while the plane is parked, then you go outside and push the tail down, thus raising the nose. This lets them relax and focus on what it will look and feel like right before touchdown without having to worry about controlling the plane, listening to your instructions, having the engine noise, etc. like they would if they were flying. It also gives them more time to think about it. They only have a few seconds in the flare, but they can sit on the ground like this as long as you can stand to hold the tail down.

The downside to this technique is it isn't possible in all aircraft. I did it pretty easily with a C-152. You might need a friend or two to help you push down the tail of a 172. I'm not around Warriors enough to know what it takes to push the tail of those down.
 
I had/have the same problem, I have found that it is more a timing issue. Mine was more along the lines of pulling the power too quickly and not enough back pressure. After I learned to pull throttle and apply back pressure simultaneously, I improved quite a bit. I still have my problems from time to time though.

Another thing was that I was uncomfortable with the descent rate on final, that just took me some time to get over it. Also, all the steps in going through the pattern cluttered my brain for a while, once I was consistant with the actual pattern work, it was easier to concentrate on the actual touchdown.

I hope that shares some insight. From the student perspective.

OH and I never found slow flight to be a help with landings. Slow flight is ridiculously easy in my opinion, and was never really helpful on my Final. Simply not over controling is the answer there.
 
I have found with my students this to be somewhat of a problem also. What I find helps is to tell the student to keeps his/her eyes to the end of the runway. As the runway shape changes perspective thats when you begin the flare. Make sure they keep a little power on, and then tell them to fly level with the runway, making sure they know there is no hurry to touchdown. Then close the throttle, as the aircraft begins to sink increase backpressure. Make sure they remain patient and just wait for the aircraft to sink onto the rwy main wheels first.

Hope this helps,

Ryan
 
Is it possibly a strength problem? I have had a few students now that didn't have enough strength to control the yoke fully left-handed. Presolo, these students consistently did not flare and frequently porpoised.

Otherwise, this is a consistent problem with most presolo students until they get a good 'landing picture'. If this is the case, patience my friend!
 
desertdog71 said:
OH and I never found slow flight to be a help with landings. Slow flight is ridiculously easy in my opinion, and was never really helpful on my Final. Simply not over controling is the answer there.
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From turning final till you stall and the nose drops, you are basically doing slow flight. I just think the two are really closely related and if you can master slow flight then landings should come easily too. Just think of yourself doing semi-slowflight all the way to the ground and using the ground effect to cusion your touchdown.
 
jrh said:
Although it won't cure the problem entirely, sometimes having them sit on an extra cushion can help. . . Of course, if your student is reasonably tall, that can't be the issue.
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This is what I would offer up as well.

After trying everything that I could think of to help them "see" the landing picture, I finally threw another cushion under their rear.

It was like magic.
 
Timbuff10 said:
From turning final till you stall and the nose drops, you are basically doing slow flight. I just think the two are really closely related and if you can master slow flight then landings should come easily too. Just think of yourself doing semi-slowflight all the way to the ground and using the ground effect to cusion your touchdown.
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I get that, but I am telling you from my point of view (as a student) Slow flight has nothing to do with Flare, to me power off stalls are closer to actual touchdown than slow flight. Slow flight is good for Final I guess, except that you do slow flight at such an altitude that you don't have a real reference point to work with when it comes to gusts, and turbulence closer to the ground. To me it is more about timing and coordinated control of throttle and yoke.

How about asking your student why they think they are having trouble. Mine boiled down to pulling throttle too quickly and when I would float it slightly I was allowing the nose to drop and thus dropping in too quickly. I would say have them try to fly straight down the runway about 5-10 feet above it, and tell them not to touchdown while reducing the power. This is what worked for me, after doing that a couple times then it clicked in my feeble brain.
 
Dazzler, It's not unusual for students to freeze near the ground. Some of us have a better sense of where we are than others. Have you done low passes in the landing configuration and at touchdown attitude? They are often used as a technique for teaching crosswind landings, but can be just as effective here.

Another idea - a diagnostic trick: watch your student's eyes. I'm not talking about "where" but "how hard." I think landing is a matter of seeing some things in detail, but seeing the big picture as well. "Fixation" is not just an instrument flight problem. I've seen students so focussed (fixated) on one thing that they miss the rest. "Watch the end of the runway" puts there eyes right there and the never move or see anything else - that will usually cause a high flare. "Watch the numbers" ends up digging the nose into the ground. If you see the pilots eyes not move, you may want to demonstrate and talk though something as basic as eye movements and peripheral cues. Heck, in a high wing, I'll even suggest the student glance at the wheel to see how high it is off the ground and to keep those eyes (and brain) moving.

desertdog hit on an important point. Have you asked the student what he thinks is the problem? You may find that he either has the answer or can give you the clues to figure out what technique will work for him.
 
Thanks for the responses! I will have to try out some of your ideas.

Actually, here's the kicker:

This particular guy already has his Private Pilot certificate :eek:, but, according to him, his instructor was so bad that he learned more about landings on his checkride than he ever did with his primary training instructor :confused: :banghead:
 
i have a few student with the same problem too and on top of the responses you have gotten I would like to add:

There is a AOPA article (I think it is by Greg Brown, but will have to check) called "Pie in the Sky" which gave some insight to a student I was teaching about the landing field of vision (then again I photocopied about 5 articles on landing and gave hime the "Better Takeoff and Landings book" to read too.)

Second, believe this or not, I took another student up at night to practice t/o & ldgs (and got a few requirements out of the way). Usually I don't do this until further into training before the night cross country, and when they have more control over the plane, but in this instance it worked.

Because it was night there were very little external references other than the lighting to utilize as reference. Having briefed him on some of the illusions we might expect at night, the first few ladings were rough, but improved steadily as the night went on. By the 8th landing he was nailing them, well, not nailing them, but at least flaring now.
 
In the tanker (KC-135/B-707) we had something called a landing attitude demo, that was flown by the IP. Basically it consisted of finding a nice long 12000 foot long runway, and leaving the power in while applying the landing attitude at about 2' or so over the runway. The airplane would level off and fly in the landing attitude in ground effect just fine. You could pull power slightly and the airplane would touch down, put it back in and the airplane would lift off again. You could show crab into the wind, and the transition to the wing low method of cross wind control, and finish with a go around, all on one pass over the runway. It was great because the student was looking at the landing attitude for about 1min to 1 min 30secs straight.
In the T-37 if I have a student who is having trouble with the landing, I may try that, but if its a ROUNDOUT problem (which sounds like your stud's got) I've sometimes reverted to "cross the threshold, count 1 potato, 2 potato, and establish your pitch picture." It's ugly, and you don't want it to become his habit pattern because he'll drop out changing conditions and airmanship, but it can help with an INITIAL student if the goal is just to get him to physically on the ground and build some confidence. Just be prepared to "Un-teach" him the bad habit that you're instilling.
 
fish314 said:
In the tanker (KC-135/B-707) we had something called a landing attitude demo, that was flown by the IP. Basically it consisted of finding a nice long 12000 foot long runway, and leaving the power in while applying the landing attitude at about 2' or so over the runway. The airplane would level off and fly in the landing attitude in ground effect just fine. You could pull power slightly and the airplane would touch down, put it back in and the airplane would lift off again. You could show crab into the wind, and the transition to the wing low method of cross wind control, and finish with a go around, all on one pass over the runway. It was great because the student was looking at the landing attitude for about 1min to 1 min 30secs straight.
In the T-37 if I have a student who is having trouble with the landing, I may try that, but if its a ROUNDOUT problem (which sounds like your stud's got) I've sometimes reverted to "cross the threshold, count 1 potato, 2 potato, and establish your pitch picture." It's ugly, and you don't want it to become his habit pattern because he'll drop out changing conditions and airmanship, but it can help with an INITIAL student if the goal is just to get him to physically on the ground and build some confidence. Just be prepared to "Un-teach" him the bad habit that you're instilling.
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How long have you been at CAFB? my house is about 4 min from the gate...took a t38 ride there...
 
Let's not be dropping our "sirs" all buddy-buddy-like just because this is the Internet, C3C Turner of CS-28....
 
aloft said:
Let's not be dropping our "sirs" all buddy-buddy-like just because this is the Internet, C3C Turner of CS-28....
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Congratulations, you found me on the global.....
 
ian said:
How long have you been at CAFB? my house is about 4 min from the gate...took a t38 ride there...
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Ohh, about 2 and a half weeks or so... I'm not even qualed to fly with students yet. Probably not until next week. And no "sir" is cool by me... I get "sir'd" plenty. BTW I was CS-30 for 2 years and Bull 6 as a firstie and 2-degree. IHTFP!
 
fish314 said:
Ohh, about 2 and a half weeks or so... I'm not even qualed to fly with students yet. Probably not until next week. And no "sir" is cool by me... I get "sir'd" plenty. BTW I was CS-30 for 2 years and Bull 6 as a firstie and 2-degree. IHTFP!
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I was in 36 my four degree year, and 28 from here on out..
here are some fun new policies we are about to implement:
The "R" word is back for the class of 09
Lights out will be enforced
Marching to breakfast again

Fast Neat Average...........
are you on the 37's? did you FAIP or how did you get there? Sorry for all the questions, just never really meet that many people at CAFB..what year did you graduate from here?
 
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