Flap retraction on the runway

As for the flap retraction thing, I think it really matters what kind of airplane you are flying. I know the Beech Sundowner is one of those that skids if the flaps aren't retracted. They are manual flaps, so you can really feel it dropping down when you retract them. Other airplanes love to keep flying, especially STOL type aircraft in gusty winds, so it might be a good idea to do it there too.

At the same time, I am sure plenty of planes don't care what happens with the flaps when you land, spoilers go out and BAM it ain't hopping back in the air. So there it might be best to stick with the company policy and just wait to retract after getting off the runway.

Every airplane is different, and some people are arguing 717's vs Maules here (maybe not those planes, but you get the drift). Can't we all just get ALONG! :) Both sides can be right! Can Doug please pass some ice cream around now.
 
What I want to know is if this guy should have put the flaps up while he bouncing down the runway to kill the lift and get it settled? :crazy:
 
Sorry if I am too lazy to read through 9 posts of this debate, but I do have a somewhat relevant question:

In flight school I had an IP debrief me that I shouldn't have reconfigured the aircraft (ie bring the flaps up and bring in the speed brakes) while on landing rollout (granted I was under control and under 25 kts ground speed at the time). His reasoning was that it says not to in the FAR's. Haven't been able to find such a restriction, so I am wondering if this is true or just kind of a word-of-mouth myth. Great guy and I agree in hindsight with the spirit of this debrief point, but I'm just wondering if anyone has heard of this. I had other IP's debrief me subsequently to that that I in fact should be cleaning up the jet and getting ahead of post landing checks so that I don't hold up my lead from taxiing back to the line.
 
John is talking about flap setting changes as part of a formal configuration change while running a checklist on an aircraft that goes faster and would see little appreciable benefit during roll out.

Pat is talking about using the flaps as an extra control surface, to be adjusted dynamically in response to changing conditions in a lighter aircraft where it can make a huge difference.

I think you guys are both right (except for the open and shut part).

I have next to no experience compared to most of you guys but when getting my private I was taught the flap retraction on the roll out (as recommended by Cessna) as a mandatory part of short field landing technique and a useful tool, but by no means a regular procedure to be used on every landing.

In the Cessna 152 I flew it made a very noticeable difference in braking effectiveness despite the slower transit time of the electric flap actuators.

I have no experience in 40 kt gusts but Pat's reasoning seems spot on.
 
I think retracting the flaps in the C401 saved my life and the lives of my passengers when the brake failed, and I may occasionally use it in a small piston, but I don't know of any reason to use this technique in a cabin class aircraft...or our tankers.
 
greaper007 said:
8 pages later I think it's finally time for everyone to compare penis size. Smallest wins, just because that sounds more interesting.
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dhc2tacksby said:
Despite my severe lack of confidence in CFI's ability to actually fly, I was one for a brief month. I chewed a guy's ass because he immediately retracted the flaps on rollout, not because he retracted the flaps, but when he did we veered off course (I'd say centerline, but we weren't on it in the first place)

To all you expert's who have only ever flown in the right seat, whether it be a 172 for a thousand of the same hour or an RJ, please keep your opinion in perspective.

I'm just a dumb 135 guy, but I've seen this a few times: what does the weight of the aircraft have to do with anything in this debate? Are you telling me a 777 receiving an increased performance shear isn't going to go flying again? Perhaps a trip back in time to private pilot groundschool is in order.
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I was wondering why you think CFI's can't fly? Even though I did the CFI thing for a while, I never felt my stick skills really diminish. Maybe it was where I taught, or maybe I have good muscle memory... but who knows. I know other CFI's that are good stick pilots. Maybe you just met a couple of bad CFI's? Do you feel the same about right seaters as well? Most of the time they do alternate legs, so I am sure they get enough practice. Flying isn't rocket science, its pretty easy to stay good. Hell, I have seen my Dad not fly for years and just jump in a Decathlon or a 310 and just go.

If you don't mind me asking, where do you work and what do you fly? I am just wondering. It might help me put what you are saying into perspective.

Take care.
 
Just a couple of thoughts:

- In the PA32 with the johnson bar flaps (or just about any other type w/ a johnson) retracting the flaps on the roll is a technique that works very well. Yes, you can even play with partially raising them before touchdown with corresponding changes in the elevator and that works well too. Actually, it's a whole lot of fun.

- In the high wing Cessnas with electric flaps it's probably a little less effective, but effective nonetheless. It's something I've used with effectiveness in 152s, 172s, 206s, 207s, and even 208s. I'll take as much weight on wheels as soon as possible thank you very much, and that's not just about braking action.

- There are some light aircraft models with whacked out control setups that you should think twice in using this technique. Certain older Beech models come to mind right off.

- While the big iron guys pretty much all chime in that you should never make configuration changes on the runway, what has been ignored is that for the most part they all have auto-spoilers that give them the same effect (more weight on wheels as soon as possible) that us crazy Alaskans (me, Pat, ESA, dhc2, etc....) are accomplishing with adjusting the flaps on the roll or sometimes before.

- Lastly (and because he'd never say it himself) dhc2tacksby really is a nice guy who listens well and works very hard. If I actually drank he'd be a good guy to hoist a beer with. Don't let his tough guy forum persona fool you.
 
TallFlyer said:
- Lastly (and because he'd never say it himself) dhc2tacksby really is a nice guy who listens well and works very hard. If I actually drank he'd be a good guy to hoist a beer with. Don't let his tough guy forum persona fool you.
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Hey, I don't disagree about the usefulness of flap retraction for some scenarios...if it's cabin class (which was where the disconnect in the discussion came in) it's pretty well cut and dried in nearly all situations that is an unaccepted practice

...as far as how nice someone is on the forums vs. in person I've heard that before...I think if you can be nice in person, then you should be able to be nice on the forums, it just takes more effort. I think it's like saying sorry about something you said while drunk, you wanted to be that way anyway but the alcohol gives you an excuse.
In all honesty, I think he has a good perspective on things, I just don't like a bullying approach...never have never will...and I am consistent and persistent about that. I do appreciate you coming to his defense ;)
 
Bumblebee said:
...as far as how nice someone is on the forums vs. in person I've heard that before...I think if you can be nice in person, then you should be able to be nice on the forums, it just takes more effort.
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Look at the history of all my post's. I'm not nice all the time. Sometimes I am. Sometimes not. Just like in real life. I don't hide behind a JC handle and brown nose.

Like I said earlier, my JetCareer's persona got me my current job. Why should I play nice ALL the time, when I'm not nice all the time? That would seem a bit fake to me.

Look no further than FSIflyer's attempt to hire someone from JC. His (the hiree) post's were probably nice all the time, so, like FSIflyer stated, it came as quite a shock when he hired a bag who ended up screwing him over.



If you don't mind me asking, where do you work and what do you fly? I am just wondering. It might help me put what you are saying into perspective.
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I currently work with PPragman and Tallflyer, flying a Cherokee 6 in SE Alaska. More importantly in keeping with this thread I used to fly Navajo's on very short gravel strips in Northern Canada.

edited to add:
Why do I bash CFI's on a near daily basis? Because the majority of the CFI's don't know the depth of their experience. What works well in the training environment, doesn't always work in the real world where there are exigent circumstance surrounding any given flight.
 
If your SOP or aircraft is able to do config changes, and you need to do one for whatever reason, go ahead.

If either doesn't allow, or it's in any way unsafe or not legal for your operation, then don't.

Either way, use your PIC knowledge and authority to determine which one is right for your particular situation.

How hard is that?
 
MikeD said:
If your SOP or aircraft is able to do config changes, and you need to do one for whatever reason, go ahead.

If either doesn't allow, or it's in any way unsafe or not legal for your operation, then don't.

Either way, use your PIC knowledge and authority to determine which one is right for your particular situation.

How hard is that?
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Well, modern day polito-news has taught us that there are freedom lovers and terr'ists!

Are the flap-raisers freedom lovers or terr'ists?! ;)
 
dhc2tacksby said:
I currently work with PPragman and Tallflyer, flying a Cherokee 6 in SE Alaska. More importantly in keeping with this thread I used to fly Navajo's on very short gravel strips in Northern Canada.

edited to add:
Why do I bash CFI's on a near daily basis? Because the majority of the CFI's don't know the depth of their experience. What works well in the training environment, doesn't always work in the real world where there are exigent circumstance surrounding any given flight.
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Cool. I talked to PPragman a couple of times via PM, seems like a great guy. I get what you are saying about some CFI's that just sit around a specific air strip and that is all they know. They then pretend to know more than they actually do. Some of what they say is theoretical and should work, but experience in a particular flight environment helps too. :)

Just rememeber, not all CFI's are like that. A lot of the guys I worked with were retired military, one was even a retired full bird Colonel. Now even though he is training in a Cessna, he has a wealth of knowledge from years of worldwide experience, be it training in T38's or flying C130's. And they don't come off as "know it alls", the guy I am thinking of was one of the best CFI's I ever saw. When I grow up I want to be like that! :)
 
MikeD said:
How hard is that?
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Depending on your attitude it appears to be as hard as alchemy for some.


One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the guys flying the big iron actually do a config change on the runway of sorts. Well, the plane does anyway.

Most jets I've seen have auto-spoilers that deploy when there is weight on the wheels which does exactly what us crazies are talking about: reduces lift. The benefit y'all have is that it is automatic. If I had spoilers in my 207 I wouldn't need to dump the flaps but I guess I'll have to just stick with my wacky procedure.
 
dhc2tacksby said:
I don't hide behind a JC handle and brown nose.
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Lovely,
I don't know who you are referring to here... I always say if there are two ways to take something take it in the best way, and it is taking a bit of will power not to take this comment personally...so on to the next.


dhc2tacksby said:
edited to add:
Why do I bash CFI's on a near daily basis? Because the majority of the CFI's don't know the depth of their experience. What works well in the training environment, doesn't always work in the real world where there are exigent circumstance surrounding any given flight.
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agreed, on both counts, except that this place is not to bash, it is to mentor, educate...help along...be truthful but that doesn't mean you have to be mean.

Matter of fact, bashing is not an approved method here. I am being very clear with you, do you understand what I am trying to say?
 
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