First student tried to kill me...

[ryan1234]

I met a Cirrus test pilot a few years back. The Cirrus will spin and recover just fine, they just didn't spin certify it because of the cost involved.

Just wait until a student really tries to kill you.

I've heard the same thing.

On another note... my old instructor had an unorthodox method...

I was riding in the back of a 172, while my buddy flew in the front with the instructor... he was doing power-on stalls... and of course wasn't coordinated.. my instructor tried to reason with him about it a couple times.. but he kept doing it.... so my instructor just stopped talking... the kid did it again, only this time slammed the throttle forward in some weird motion... the thing went into a spin (with me in the back - in the 'normal' category)... my instructor calm as anything just asked him to recover politely - the kid froze, my instructor recovered.

After that he was the most coordinated pilot ever to fly.

 

[Douglas]

I've heard the same thing.

On another note... my old instructor had a boss unorthodox method...

.

I dig that something fierce.

 

[escapepilot]

I tried a little different approach than normal with a student today. He was doing stalls very well and coordinated. However, I like to see someone screw up so I can see how they react and recover. So we had a brief Q&A on what it takes to enter a spin and how to recover then I held it in a stall while he worked rudders to keep the wings as level as possible. Right wing up, right foot down. Left wing up, left foot down. I only let him work the rudders so there was never any temptation to apply aileron. This drill worked really well. Of course, it was in a Citabria and not a Cirrus, but the muscle memory should be there in whatever he's flying next.

 

[ryan1234]

I tried a little different approach than normal with a student today. He was doing stalls very well and coordinated. However, I like to see someone screw up so I can see how they react and recover. So we had a brief Q&A on what it takes to enter a spin and how to recover then I held it in a stall while he worked rudders to keep the wings as level as possible. Right wing up, right foot down. Left wing up, left foot down. I only let him work the rudders so there was never any temptation to apply aileron. This drill worked really well. Of course, it was in a Citabria and not a Cirrus, but the muscle memory should be there in whatever he's flying next.

Funny you mention that.... that's exactly what my instructor did with me after that whole incident... it's very weird.. that muscle memory still comes to play today 10 years later

 

[shdw]

remind him to keep the ball centered while he's pitching up.

Gahhhhhh stop it with the ball people! Pick your head up and look outside. Take your head and shake it back and forth like your screaming no and throwing a fit. If the horizon moves side to side like that, use the rudder to correct it!

Now all that is left is getting them not to use the ailerons. Recognition of the stall can be done through control feel and seat of pants. When the plane falls away from your booty, you is in a stall my friend. It is time to apply corrective action, step one: LOOK UP (not at the ball) and recognize your attitude. Respond accordingly.


I have a story about this with a recent checkout. I had a CFI, great instructor and a nice guy, but he just loved his instruments. During my power on stall he was repeatedly on me for the ball being half to the left. We were doing ~30 degrees nose up and I compare wings (as I was trained to do when performing a loop) to the horizon for my rudder coordination.

Anyways, two stalls that fell straight down. Both with the ball half left. Long story short, he took over and centered the ball for one stall. We fell left from the addition left rudder to center the ball. Sometimes the airplane can tell you more than those little round dials.

 

[shdw]

then I held it in a stall while he worked rudders to keep the wings as level as possible.

Falling leaf. :beer: Love this demonstration, +1 from me.

 

[R Banger]

Falling leaf. :beer: Love this demonstration, +1 from me.

:yeahthat: Use it for all my students.

 

[jhugz]

Jhugz, you mean right rudder?

:yeahthat:

It's been a while but I'm pretty sure if I go back to the Cirrus SOP's that UND & Cirrus created together proper recovery for a wing drop in a stall is the use of aileron not rudder. Of course in your Cessna or Archer this isn't the case. I teach in Archers and a demo I like to do w/ my students is to do a clean power off stall and during the break add in full left & right aileron to show them the ineffectiveness of the aileron and why they have to use rudder. However due to the more extreme differences of angle of incidence between the inboard and outboard wing the inboard wing stalls first with the outboards flying. Aileron effectiveness in the stall is amazing. I'm just trying to pull off the top of my head if this is the "standard" method or not according to Cirrus' syllabi.

I met a Cirrus test pilot a few years back. The Cirrus will spin and recover just fine, they just didn't spin certify it because of the cost involved.

Just wait until a student really tries to kill you.

It will recover w/ no problem however it was much cheaper to not go through the FAA's certification process. They were able to do this due to having the CAPs system, but had to use this as their ONLY approved method for spin recovery which is where the misconception came from. It has been spun for JAA certification and from my understanding it's pretty damn difficult to spin (I've flown w/ some real winners and they never did.) and if you do it will probably be in the flaps 50% config, full power.

jhugz, your post held almost zero value in this thread. You being the cirrus guy here, I expected better.

Thanks for the tips everyone.

I've heard previously that the SR20 had demonstrated 1-turn spins for EASA/JAA certification, but having read through the POH and other limitations, I don't think letting a student spin an airplane which is specifically prohibited from doing so just to prove a point (and risking my certificates and job) wouldn't be the best course of action during my first hour of dual given.

For what it's worth, he has never flown the cirrus before and this was my first time flying with him...Probably a little bit of nervousness on both ends.

@jhugz, I wans't making the Renslow comment to be crass or funny -- I was making it to the effect that this guy has maybe another 40 hours of dual left before he'll be certified as a commercial/instrument pilot, all of which (except for the instrument rating work) will be flown with me. I want to be sure this stuff is second nature to him, it's a responsibility I have to him, me, and everyone he flies with now and in the future.

Keep the tips coming if you've got them...Like I said, I'm a newbie instructor and can use all the advice you guys can give at this point.

I'm to tired holmes to really go in depth w/ you tonight, but I'm sorry to come off like a jerk. I just didn't think the Renslow comment was appropriate and it set my tone for the rest of the post. I PM'ed you my celly, give me a ring tom after 6pm Eastern. I'll give you some advice on the bird and just in general. I'm far from an "experienced" instructor however I've kept myself and my students alive for the past two years and 1000 hours of dual given and will give you some tips to do the same. Again my bad. :beer:

Gahhhhhh stop it with the ball people! Pick your head up and look outside. Take your head and shake it back and forth like your screaming no and throwing a fit. If the horizon moves side to side like that, use the rudder to correct it!

Preach it brotha!

 

[broncoav8r]

I have a bad feeling that parachutes may begin to deploy over LAF this year.

Eh they said the same thing for Battle Creek, MI back in 2006. Teaching in the Cirrus is an experience that has a bit of a learning curve don't get me wrong...but you can get it....

When I was doing my initial CFI in the Cirrus, it took a while to get used to the controls from the right due to the shape of the glare shield and the sight picture.

 

[TheBritishBaron]

It's been a while but I'm pretty sure if I go back to the Cirrus SOP's that UND & Cirrus created together proper recovery for a wing drop in a stall is the use of aileron not rudder. Of course in your Cessna or Archer this isn't the case. I teach in Archers and a demo I like to do w/ my students is to do a clean power off stall and during the break add in full left & right aileron to show them the ineffectiveness of the aileron and why they have to use rudder. However due to the more extreme differences of angle of incidence between the inboard and outboard wing the inboard wing stalls first with the outboards flying. Aileron effectiveness in the stall is amazing. I'm just trying to pull off the top of my head if this is the "standard" method or not according to Cirrus' syllabi.

I find this hard to believe even in a plane that i am not familiar with. Perhaps the ailerons do have more effectiveness in a stall compared to other makes, however I see the more important thing being that they can definitely further aggravate the condition if improperly used in conjunction with the rudder. To me, it seems pretty universal that ailerons should be neutralized when a spin is encountered, and opposite rudder/ forward elevator applied. Then again, maybe my Cessna swamped experience really is interfering with this Cirrus logic

 

[Mike H]

I totally agree that keeping the ball centered and staring at the inclinometer are two different things. But if you mention to any student/low time pilot and most pilots in general to "keep the ball centered," the first thing they do is look at the ball.

Check it occasionally, but don't fixate on it. Look outside and see if there's any traffic to fixate on instead.

I hope I haven't made shdw's head explode with all that.

 

[Ajax]

I find this hard to believe even in a plane that i am not familiar with. Perhaps the ailerons do have more effectiveness in a stall compared to other makes, however I see the more important thing being that they can definitely further aggravate the condition if improperly used in conjunction with the rudder. To me, it seems pretty universal that ailerons should be neutralized when a spin is encountered, and opposite rudder/ forward elevator applied. Then again, maybe my Cessna swamped experience really is interfering with this Cirrus logic

It has definitely piqued my interest. For what it's worth, I found this:

http://www.whycirrus.com/engineering/stall-spin.aspx

Virtually all pilots practice stalls in training flights. The inadvertent stall is very different …

In an inadvertent stall you, the pilot, are not thinking or expecting “stall.” You are probably distracted (why else would you stall in the first place?) and likely uncoordinated. You sense the rolling motion but feel it is a bump or minor turbulence. You are not thinking “rudder” or “step on the high wing.

Think of the “base to final” turn.

In a Cirrus aircraft, the ailerons offer superior low-speed effectiveness - even when the inboard section of the wing may be stalled. Without this design advantage, applying aileron during a stall risks aggravating the stall and raises the very real possibility of inadvertant spin entry.

While rolling the airplane level does not alone recover the stall, it does give you a fighting chance to recognize and recover this potentially fatal mistake.

How does this wing design work?

The outboard section of the Cirrus wing flies with a lower angle of attack than the inboard section. When the inboard section, which produces much of the lift, stalls the outboard section, where the ailerons are, is still flying. The result is that a stalled Cirrus airplane can be controlled intuitively using aileron.

 

[Mike H]

How does this wing design work?

The outboard section of the Cirrus wing flies with a lower angle of attack than the inboard section. When the inboard section, which produces much of the lift, stalls the outboard section, where the ailerons are, is still flying. The result is that a stalled Cirrus airplane can be controlled intuitively using aileron.

It's called "washout". Don't a lot of airplanes have that? I know Arrows & Cherokees have it. Pretty sure Cessnas do too. Nothing new here.

 

[Ajax]

It's called "washout". Don't a lot of airplanes have that? I know Arrows & Cherokees have it. Pretty sure Cessnas do too. Nothing new here.

I'm aware of that, but I don't recall hearing of a Cessna or Piper whose ailerons function well after the break(I've never tried it either). I was just posting that because jhugz's post got me interested and I wanted to do a little more research.

 

[TheBritishBaron]

It has definitely piqued my interest. For what it's worth, I found this:

http://www.whycirrus.com/engineering/stall-spin.aspx

Interesting read. Cessna high-wings obviously have the same angle of incidence design, so perhaps Cirrus takes theirs to the next level. At any rate, I still don't see anything that encourages use of ailerons to recover from a fully developed spin.

 

[z987k]

It's called "washout". Don't a lot of airplanes have that? I know Arrows & Cherokees have it. Pretty sure Cessnas do too. Nothing new here.

If I remember correctly, it isn't that the cherokees have a lower aoi at the tip than the root, but they put the stall strips at the root to make the root stall first.

 

[Mike H]

I don't know about the Hershey Bar PA28's, but the Tapered wing ones all have a lower angle of incidence at the outboard sections than at the inboard sections- and they also have stall strips (just to make sure, I guess).

My point was the same one made by BritishBaron: I see nothing that should encourage using aileron instead of rudder to level the wings in a stall

 

[z987k]

I don't know about the Hershey Bar PA28's, but the Tapered wing ones all have a lower angle of incidence at the outboard sections than at the inboard sections- and they also have stall strips (just to make sure, I guess).

My point was the same one made by BritishBaron: I see nothing that should encourage using aileron instead of rudder to level the wings in a stall

Ah yes the +1 Cherokees have this, the others do not.

 

[Gajre539]

Always do a stall recovery to the horn before doing a full stall with a student... something I've learned from experience. After they can recover from 3-4 stalls to the horn, they can start looking at the ball. There are way too many things happening for a new student to learn a recovery from a full stall while paying attention to the ball. Welcome to being a CFI. I've been "almost" killed way too many times to count.. :insane:

 

[ppragman]

It has definitely piqued my interest. For what it's worth, I found this:

http://www.whycirrus.com/engineering/stall-spin.aspx

This is why its my opinion that the first thing done in any new airplane type to fly should be some slow flight at minimum airspeed (and not what's on the guage, but the minimum airspeed) with an instructor prior to doing all the other things that people get caught up in.

Jump in, learn how the airplane feels as it begins to mush around, then you'll be aware of what it feels like from the get go. Seems to me like it sets the tone for me.