First student tried to kill me...

element94

element94

Well-Known Member
During my first 20 minutes of dual given in the SR-20. We were doing power off stalls, and during the break he hadn't properly coordinated the aircraft. Left wing dropped, he applied full right aileron, and rudder in the direction of the turn. 150 hour private pilot. Cirrus isn't certified for spins...

I haven't feared for my life in an airplane until today. Welcome to the club?

On a more professional note, how should I approach this as a CFI? I obviously don't want him to ending up as the next Marvin Renslow.

Thanks guys.
 
prevention, prevention, prevention.

remind him to keep the ball centered while he's pitching up. also to keep the wings level with rudder
 
Fundamentals fundamentals. 150 250 350 hours it doesn't hurt to hit the basics for review. Stuff gets cemented in after a while if you keep on them.
 
Mike H said:
remind him to keep the ball centered while he's pitching up. also to keep the wings level with rudder
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That's one of the few things I really don't like about glass panels. The "ball" is so freaking small, its hard to get a quick glance at when you need it as a beginning student.
 
element94 said:
During my first 20 minutes of dual given in the SR-20. We were doing power off stalls, and during the break he hadn't properly coordinated the aircraft. Left wing dropped, he applied full right aileron, and rudder in the direction of the turn. 150 hour private pilot. Cirrus isn't certified for spins...

He should be recovering w/ right aileron...

I haven't feared for my life in an airplane until today. Welcome to the club?

Maybe you should have a little better understanding of the aircraft you're teaching in before you do teach someone in it. Do a search on Cirrus & Spins.

On a more professional note, how should I approach this as a CFI?

As a professional is probably a good start. Make a lesson out of the situation, make sure the student learns from it and move on. Don't dwell on it.

I obviously don't want him to ending up as the next Marvin Renslow.

This kind of stuff isn't funny.

Thanks guys.

You're welcome
Click to expand...
 
Mike H said:
prevention, prevention, prevention.

remind him to keep the ball centered while he's pitching up. also to keep the wings level with rudder
Click to expand...

When I teach stalls, I don't teach "keep the ball centered." In my opinion, it has the student looking in the wrong place. I demonstrate too much and too little rudder with the student looking out the window and teach them where to look at high pitch angles to still be able to have a pitch/ground reference. By not mentioning the ball until later, the primacy has the student looking outside the airplane (where they should be looking).

I haven't taught primary in a glass cockpit, but this will also solve the problem of the glass "ball" being so small.

You also asked for how to handle the situation. My take is that you sit down with the guy, and strongly recommend some further training on stalls and spins. Suggest another flight or two and before the flights doing the AOPA ASF course on stalls. If the guy refuses, you can't make him, but I have yet to have a pilot where I explained the situation that I saw in flight, and they just refused to listen at all. Most people know where their weaknesses are.

I would suggest doing some more incipient spins in the Cirrus on your own. Most of the PA28s aren't certified for spins either, but playing with cross controlled stalls was a great learning experience for me. I'm 100% not scared of a student dropping a wing and putting in incorrect recovery controls at a safe altitude. Most of the time, when I had a student get into incipient spin, I sat with my arms crossed and coached them through the recovery. I never once had that degrade into a full spin. Most modern airplanes, you have to REALLY want it to spin to make it happen.
 
msmspilot said:
When I teach stalls, I don't teach "keep the ball centered." In my opinion, it has the student looking in the wrong place. I demonstrate too much and too little rudder with the student looking out the window and teach them where to look at high pitch angles to still be able to have a pitch/ground reference. By not mentioning the ball until later, the primacy has the student looking outside the airplane (where they should be looking).

I haven't taught primary in a glass cockpit, but this will also solve the problem of the glass "ball" being so small.

You also asked for how to handle the situation. My take is that you sit down with the guy, and strongly recommend some further training on stalls and spins. Suggest another flight or two and before the flights doing the AOPA ASF course on stalls. If the guy refuses, you can't make him, but I have yet to have a pilot where I explained the situation that I saw in flight, and they just refused to listen at all. Most people know where their weaknesses are.

I would suggest doing some more incipient spins in the Cirrus on your own. Most of the PA28s aren't certified for spins either, but playing with cross controlled stalls was a great learning experience for me. I'm 100% not scared of a student dropping a wing and putting in incorrect recovery controls at a safe altitude. Most of the time, when I had a student get into incipient spin, I sat with my arms crossed and coached them through the recovery. I never once had that degrade into a full spin. Most modern airplanes, you have to REALLY want it to spin to make it happen.
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exactly, If I catch a student looking at the ball during a stall I will cover up the ball.
 
Meh, that's nothing. After a few hundred of dual given you'll just sigh resignedly and say, "let's try that again, only this time use the rudder to point the nose straight during the approach to the stall".

Now, what WILL get your attention is this:
Single engine in a twin on a circle-to-land. Left engine is simulated failure, right is full power (or close to it). Student is turning left base to final. Puts in too much left rudder (or doesn't release enough right). Left wing drops. Student puts in right aileron. Nose starts to drop. Student adds back pressure. Stall warning horn sounds. Instructor realizes what's happening. "LOWER THE NOSE. Give it a bit of right rudder, watch the airspeed.....
 
msmspilot said:
When I teach stalls, I don't teach "keep the ball centered." In my opinion, it has the student looking in the wrong place. .
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Keeping the ball centered and staring at the inclinometer are two entirely different things. The OP isn't talking about a student pilot, but a 150 hour PPL who was obviously neither looking outside the airplane & keeping the nose straight with rudder, nor watching the ball. Where he was looking is anybody's guess
 
Mike H;1569736[B said:
]Keeping the ball centered and staring at the inclinometer are two entirely different things[/B]. The OP isn't talking about a student pilot, but a 150 hour PPL who was obviously neither looking outside the airplane & keeping the nose straight with rudder, nor watching the ball. Where he was looking is anybody's guess
Click to expand...

Mike H said:
prevention, prevention, prevention.

remind him to keep the ball centered while he's pitching up. also to keep the wings level with rudder
Click to expand...

ScratchHead.gif
Makes no sense. Did you re-but?

KSCessnaDriver said:
That's one of the few things I really don't like about glass panels. The "ball" is so freaking small, its hard to get a quick glance at when you need it as a beginning student.
Click to expand...

Keep your eye's outside. Whether you have to look out the front of the airplane, or off to the side a little, if you keep your eyes outside and keep the sight picture the same with your hand and feet, you'll have nothing to worry about.
 
I met a Cirrus test pilot a few years back. The Cirrus will spin and recover just fine, they just didn't spin certify it because of the cost involved.

Just wait until a student really tries to kill you.
 
element94 said:
During my first 20 minutes of dual given in the SR-20. We were doing power off stalls, and during the break he hadn't properly coordinated the aircraft. Left wing dropped, he applied full right aileron, and rudder in the direction of the turn. 150 hour private pilot. Cirrus isn't certified for spins...

I haven't feared for my life in an airplane until today. Welcome to the club?

On a more professional note, how should I approach this as a CFI? I obviously don't want him to ending up as the next Marvin Renslow.

Thanks guys.
Click to expand...

I have a bad feeling that parachutes may begin to deploy over LAF this year.
 
Mike H said:
Keeping the ball centered and staring at the inclinometer are two entirely different things. The OP isn't talking about a student pilot, but a 150 hour PPL who was obviously neither looking outside the airplane & keeping the nose straight with rudder, nor watching the ball. Where he was looking is anybody's guess
Click to expand...

I totally agree that keeping the ball centered and staring at the inclinometer are two different things. But if you mention to any student/low time pilot and most pilots in general to "keep the ball centered," the first thing they do is look at the ball.

Where he's looking is anybody's guess, which is why I harp on looking outside when I teach.
 
jhugz, your post held almost zero value in this thread. You being the cirrus guy here, I expected better.
 
If there are clouds, have him keep the nose lined up with a cloud. If the nose starts moving to the left apply more right rudder, if the nose is moving to the right reduce some right rudder pressure.
 
I don't think you need to hammer in anything else about staying coordinated during stalls. I'd say the biggest thing you need to do is get him right back in the airplane. The longer you wait the more he's going to dwell on the mistake. Get right back on the horse and gently remind him of the importance of staying coordinated. Believe me, we've all made very big mistakes in our flying career. I've probably done as bad as this at 10 times the amount of hours. If this is the only big mistake he's made and you've been flying with him for a while then he probably isn't a bad pilot. You get a feeling for the bad ones.
 
Shrug it off and learn from it, there will be more to come, it happens. I am not a Cirrus expert but they can recover, they are not spin certified however. I just take my students up nice and high let go of the controls and let them put it into a spin (granted I am in a skyhawk and I make sure we are utility). Usually takes one good one to spook them and they will keep their feet alive after that. Scare tactics have their place. :)
 
Thanks for the tips everyone.

I've heard previously that the SR20 had demonstrated 1-turn spins for EASA/JAA certification, but having read through the POH and other limitations, I don't think letting a student spin an airplane which is specifically prohibited from doing so just to prove a point (and risking my certificates and job) wouldn't be the best course of action during my first hour of dual given.

For what it's worth, he has never flown the cirrus before and this was my first time flying with him...Probably a little bit of nervousness on both ends.

@jhugz, I wans't making the Renslow comment to be crass or funny -- I was making it to the effect that this guy has maybe another 40 hours of dual left before he'll be certified as a commercial/instrument pilot, all of which (except for the instrument rating work) will be flown with me. I want to be sure this stuff is second nature to him, it's a responsibility I have to him, me, and everyone he flies with now and in the future.

Keep the tips coming if you've got them...Like I said, I'm a newbie instructor and can use all the advice you guys can give at this point.
 
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