First plane to purchase?

ozone

ozone

Well-Known Member
I was looking at some very good prices on a fixed-gear 180 hp velocity standard edition. Would this be a decent plane to own/partnership own as a first plane? It seems Mr. Rutan has created a series of fuel-efficient, nice flying craft over the years.

Thoughts, ideas, comments from the crowd?
 
A Velocity is a great plane that isn't suited to a beginner. What are your specifics?

If you don't have a lot of time then I'd probably consider working my way by starting with a Piper or Cessna product.

The two biggest factors to consider in aircraft ownership are maintenance and insurance so keep that in mind.
 
Just go with something standard like a Cherokee, 172/182, or Mooney. Parts are easily available, it isn't hard to find a mechanic to work on them, and insurance will be cheaper.
 
Getting the "best first airplane" is very dependent on many factors.

Before giving more advice, I'd ask you:

How much do you want to carry?
How far do you want to go?
What do you consider to be a reasonable budget, both for initial purchase and yearly operating expenses?
What are your long term goals for airplane ownership? Want to upgrade in a few years to something bigger and badder, or keep flying this ship for many years?
How fast do you want to go? I left this question for last because it matters, but not nearly as much as new owners think it does.



My first airplane was my 1946 Cessna 140. Slow, old, two seats, tailwheel, VFR-only, $20k price tag. I have a customer whose first plane was a 2008 Cessna 206. Six seats, high performance, turbocharged, G1000 IFR certified glass panel, $500k price tag. And I firmly believe we each got the best first airplane for *us* and what *we* wanted to do. It's a very individual decision to make.
 
I would agree. We own both a Cherokee 140 and a homebuilt. If it wasn't for the fact we have a A&P in the family and I am training to be one the homebuilt would be a hassle since we weren't the ones to build it. Not many A&P will work on a homebuilt for liablity reasons. And if you didnt build it you can't do the work yourself. A Cherokee 140 is very cheap to own. Burns around 8 gph and can be STC'd for autogas. Annual runs around 700 dollars and the insurance is around 500 for 28k hull ground and air. With a hangar your talking around around $2700 fixed plus gas for the year. Hangars at ashland are 120 a month. We burn autogas so figure around $24 (3 x 8) a hour for fuel and $10 dollars a hour for maintence even though we have never had any real maintence issues with it but just put away $10 dollars a hour for a cushion should something come up. So if you fly 100 hours a year your look at $3400 plus the $2700 fixed expenses for a yearly total of $6100. Or about $61 dollars a hour. If you want to cut cost I suggest a partner or two. We have a few pilots in our family so we all chip in for the cost of the planes. Hope this helps.
 
The OP was a little vague...we are not sure of many of the variables to give him an informed opinion. Fortunately, not having enough data has never held me back from sharing an opinion. So...here is what I think the ideal first airplane would be:

waco_upf7_n39713_lfq_600x322.jpg
 
Having just purchased an airplane less than 1 month ago I can tell you that it is ridiculously expensive! I just lost a gas cap on the way back from Oshkosh which is 70 USD to replace used, a cheap oil change will be 100-150 USD with your own oil, vacuum pumps go out all the time and god help you if something like your DG goes Tango Uniform. Now do I regret it, absolutely not I can go fly whenever the hell I want to, go wherever the hell I want and stay for as long as I want without having to worry about some flight school breathing down my neck, however, all this come at a price. Grant it I own a vintage plane of which there are prob 100 or less still flying so my m/x bill is obviously a lot higher but I also bought the thing on a song. In the end its all about weighing your options and getting the plane that's right for you, it is defiantly a buyers market out there so if there was ever a time to buy now is that time. The one other thing I might add is that a sizable market exist for low cost IFR trainers and it will help your resell value immensely; a good friend of mine has a low time archer in really good condition but the panel is older than dirt (day VFR) and he cant give the thing away for anywhere close to what he paid for it, why because there are to many other archers and other singles on the market with good IFR GPS panels going for the same price. The end result is that he is going to take a bath, also for those of you at Oshkosh this year did you see a single manufacture offering a six pack? Hell no everyone and there dog wants glass, this is the future and what the market will be demanding in the coming years when you plan to unload it to the next guy. Now I guess you could pick up a plane like my friends archer and update the panel yourself but why would you when there are so many aircraft on the market that already have the 430's and such in them for the same price. I know when I looked into upgrading to a 430 w/ WASS it was close to 7k! More than anything you will go freaking broke faster than Obama's health care system when you start "upgrading" your panel. There aint nothing cheap about owning a bird but damm it's fun!
 
Im mulling over airplane ownership too, to get back into the hobby of flying. Id be using it more as a XCountry bird to head to the beach, visit family, or the occasional dinner away from home. I want to keep cost low, dont need all the wizzbang stuff (afterall im trying to get back into real flying), 4 seater (caplable of at least 3), IFR, and a decent speed of 115+.
 
WacoFan said:
The OP was a little vague...we are not sure of many of the variables to give him an informed opinion. Fortunately, not having enough data has never held me back from sharing an opinion. So...here is what I think the ideal first airplane would be:

waco_upf7_n39713_lfq_600x322.jpg
Click to expand...

That would be awesome for a first plane :D or just to own in general lol.

And as for co owners, my dad owned a Cardinal about ten years ago and had 2 co owners. He was in a really bad accident and ended up in the ICU for a little over a month. The co owners sold the plane. My dad paid for the majority of the expenses because he flew the plane more than the other guys put together. They didn't really give him a choice when it came to selling the plane but if they had he would have wanted to keep it.

Be careful who you chose for your co owners.
 
I appreciate the feedback. I like some of the suggestions so far. What other suggestions do folks have as a first plane?

I did all my training in a C172SP, now i almost exclusively fly piper warrior II's. I do like the feel of the warrior in the air. It seems to not get kicked around as much by crosswinds.

I live in Danvers, MA....steps from KBVY; so I want to be able to mostly poke holes in the air to build experience along with a smattering of trips with the wife and 3 year-old to Provincetown and such. Most trips would likely be under 2 hours. If she ever lets me, we would travel to visit her parents in Pittsburgh, PA....looks to be about 3-4 hours by plane.
 
ozone said:
I appreciate the feedback. I like some of the suggestions so far. What other suggestions do folks have as a first plane?

I did all my training in a C172SP, now i almost exclusively fly piper warrior II's. I do like the feel of the warrior in the air. It seems to not get kicked around as much by crosswinds.

I live in Danvers, MA....steps from KBVY; so I want to be able to mostly poke holes in the air to build experience along with a smattering of trips with the wife and 3 year-old to Provincetown and such. Most trips would likely be under 2 hours. If she ever lets me, we would travel to visit her parents in Pittsburgh, PA....looks to be about 3-4 hours by plane.
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So you have a couple things laid out:

1) Who is going with you 90% of the time
2) What your stage length is 90% of the time
3) Your experience level

Take all those in consideration. AOPA has some interesting tools to help a budget rough out.

Consider how many hours you are going to fly it a year.

Is it going to be tied down or hangared?

How much is an overhaul?

Insurance?

Annuals?

What's your budget?

The PA28 line has a lot of variations on fixed gear 4 place singles. There's a bunch of research to go into the process (as I've done it a bunch, but balked at the costs - for now). Make sure you get the big picture, so you don't buy a plane and it sits unused on a ramp when you start getting bills. :)
 
As far as vaccum pumps going out all the time I would have to disagree. We have had the cherokee for 13 years and the only major maintence we have done is to rebuild the engine because its had like 2400 hours on it at that point. Maybe we are just lucky but we have never lost a vaccum pump or any major instrument. We did have the airspeed indicator rebuilt at a cost of 700 this year because when it came time for the IFR inspection it had a leak. We are also considering putting a new light weight starter in because the starter in there now doesnt seem to have as much umph as it used to. But overall we pay less per hour to fly ours than we would renting every year. But agian we fly the airplane over 150+ hours a year so it works out. If you fly less than maybe it would be cheaper just to rent.

Back to the cost of ownership though. If you really want to fly cheap BUILD YOUR OWN! I am a huge beleiver in this. You can save soo much money if you build your own airplane. Take a KR-2 for instance. About 40k to build. Fly at 160mh burning 3.5gph. You cant beat that. Plus because you can do all your own maintence it saves a ton of money every year. If nothing else at least become a partner with a A&P. But dont tell me airplane ownership is ridicoulsy expensive because you obviously havent considered every avenue. There are ways to make it cheaper.
 
Jbroz I'm glad you have had a good experience and I'm not saying there things to discourage him, I'm simply telling it like it is. Some people have great luck and never have to put a screwdriver to their plane others go bankrupt trying to keep the bloody thing flying. Aircraft ownership is a great thing which I encourage to the right people but those people also need to understand what there getting into and that this isn't some shinny corvette you can work on in your drive way.​
 
Murdoughnut said:
Owning an airplane is ridiculously expensive, as I'm sure you know.
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Disagree

galvestonaggie said:
Having just purchased an airplane less than 1 month ago I can tell you that it is ridiculously expensive! I just lost a gas cap on the way back from Oshkosh which is 70 USD to replace used, a cheap oil change will be 100-150 USD with your own oil, vacuum pumps go out all the time and god help you if something like your DG goes Tango Uniform.
Click to expand...

Completely disagree. I have owned 2 airplanes (a Grumman Yankee, and a Seneca) and neither was ridiculously expensive. I'm not sure who you're paying $100-150 labor to change your oil, but that's not the going rate. I used to buy oil by the case and do it myself in about 30 minues. Never had a vacuum pump go out on me in either of my planes or anything I've ever rented. In 6 yrs of owning my Yankee I overhauled the AI (<$400), fixed the radio, repaired the muffler and tail tie down, put in a new carb heat cable, and put new seals in the fuel tanks (a week before I sold it). I also painted it and put in new canopy glass just to make me happy. I counted up every penny I spent on the airplane (not including the price I paid, because I sold it for almost double what I bought it for) and divided that by 500 hrs of flight time, my total came to $21 an hour. If that's what you call ridiculously expensive, then okay.


More than anything you will go freaking broke faster than Obama's health care system when you start "upgrading" your panel. There aint nothing cheap about owning a bird but damm it's fun!
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Totally agree! My advice is to make sure the pannel has in it what you want when you buy it. Avionics depreciate faster than any other component of a plane.
 
Nihon_Ni said:
Disagree



Completely disagree. I have owned 2 airplanes (a Grumman Yankee, and a Seneca) and neither was ridiculously expensive. I'm not sure who you're paying $100-150 labor to change your oil, but that's not the going rate. I used to buy oil by the case and do it myself in about 30 minues. Never had a vacuum pump go out on me in either of my planes or anything I've ever rented. In 6 yrs of owning my Yankee I overhauled the AI (<$400), fixed the radio, repaired the muffler and tail tie down, put in a new carb heat cable, and put new seals in the fuel tanks (a week before I sold it). I also painted it and put in new canopy glass just to make me happy. I counted up every penny I spent on the airplane (not including the price I paid, because I sold it for almost double what I bought it for) and divided that by 500 hrs of flight time, my total came to $21 an hour. If that's what you call ridiculously expensive, then okay.




Totally agree! My advice is to make sure the pannel has in it what you want when you buy it. Avionics depreciate faster than any other component of a plane.
Click to expand...

You got lucky - mine just came out of a $3,500 annual. Nothing wrong with it - just a lot of little stuff.
 
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