ComplexHiAv8r
Well-Known Member
Not to start a war here, but was it changed because a few bad apples were abusing the system to get the clock started?
First Couple Year Pay
- Thread starter ComplexHiAv8r
- Start date
Not to start a war here, but was it changed because a few bad apples were abusing the system to get the clock started?
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
The "clock" is still started when the door closes and brake is released. We are 100% paid for pushback time (in fact the US Air system doesn't even see a "pushback", they see an "out" time which is our "pushback" time).
HOWEVER, the company doesn't count pushback time as FAR block time towards the 30/7, 100/month, or 1000/year limits. So people that were timing out in november or early december using this way of starting the FAR block time will just have to work more.
They went thru various incarnations of starting the clock. Without acars, you can just call in your times, which is why you see express carriers with great on time performance (90%+). A little investigation shows they are calling in pre-fabricated times. Now with acars, they've gone thru various ways of capturing the different times.
But yes, it was changed because people were starting the FAR block time while still sitting at the gate. The company just wants to use us to the fullest extent. I don't know any other carriers that track pushback time for pay and FAR block time for FAR limits like we do. Remember FAR block time is when the aircraft is moving under its own power. Pushback doesn't count toward FAR block.
I have a question. Do most airlines have 13 bid periods, or 12?
Also, if a pilot is limited to 1,000 hours per year, how can average lines at many airlines be 85-95. 85(12)=1,020; 85(13)=1,105. If an airline has 12 bid period, wouldn't that limit lines to about 83, and 13 bid perioid would limit each line to about 77. Just trying to understand how it all works.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Most are 12, Mesa is 13.
Remember, FAR block time is simply that, FAR block time. That is not what your pay is based off of.
I think when most people talk about how many hours they worked, they are referring to credit hours. Back in Feb I had a 2 day trip where I FAR blocked 0.7 for the entire 2 days (mx) but was paid almost 10 hours.
The next month I FAR blocked 59 hours for the whole month, but was paid for 107.
Like it was mentioned above, work rules help improve your credit time. Generally, the better airlines have more ways to increase your credit time without increasing your block time.
For me, it's about flying the least amount possible but getting paid the maximum. I have enough hours right now. I just want the money
.ComplexHiAv8r
Well-Known Member
For me, it's about flying the least amount possible but getting paid the maximum. I have enough hours right now. I just want the money
Isn't that a bad comment to make and then turn around and complain you dont make enought money (not you directly, but others have made similar comments)? What ever happened to getting paid for what your work (and realize I think you should be paid then entire time at the airport and in the plane!)
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
The "IOE double dip" went away at CAL. Under PBS system the FO trips are not awarded. Dad had a 2+ month vacation, actually had to pick up 2 trips to not dequal and have to go to IAH and the sims. He also worked "tripple time" once, had the second trip "bought" and then worked a third.
They do have a duty rig but it is nothing great. Ends up being about 17hrs for a 4 day europe trip (48 hr layover). They were at 50% DH pay too for a year. It would not surprise me if the work rules in XJT's contract were better than CAL's.
They do have a duty rig but it is nothing great. Ends up being about 17hrs for a 4 day europe trip (48 hr layover). They were at 50% DH pay too for a year. It would not surprise me if the work rules in XJT's contract were better than CAL's.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at
You're saying you DON'T want to get paid more for doing less?
Most are 12, Mesa is 13.
Remember, FAR block time is simply that, FAR block time. That is not what your pay is based off of.
I think when most people talk about how many hours they worked, they are referring to credit hours. Back in Feb I had a 2 day trip where I FAR blocked 0.7 for the entire 2 days (mx) but was paid almost 10 hours.
The next month I FAR blocked 59 hours for the whole month, but was paid for 107.
Like it was mentioned above, work rules help improve your credit time. Generally, the better airlines have more ways to increase your credit time without increasing your block time.
For me, it's about flying the least amount possible but getting paid the maximum. I have enough hours right now. I just want the money
So, if a line, lets say on average is 90, how many hours will someone typically credit, 90, or is it usually more? On average, at your airline, how many hours does a line holding pilot credit per month?
ComplexHiAv8r
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at
You're saying you DON'T want to get paid more for doing less?
You are sounding more like another union (that I work with) with that comment. Dont do the work so they will hire another to do the job. Take a 2 man job and have 4+ union guys on it. Cant do that with an airplane, but the comment sounded like the same I hear alot.
Not exactly on the work less paid more comment, but multiple people over time make the comment that pay sucks (it does) but then comment on 14+ days off that month. I understand its a game to play within the rules, but I also was brought up to believe "a good days pay for a good day of work". Then I hear on multiple threads over time about how others have gotten block time started early and the company has had to change proceedure because of it. That is the bad apples making it worse for the masses, IMO. Well, you agreed to the contract and the rules....play the game, but play fairly!
I will most likely get flogged (or worse) for that last comment.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
It my case a 90 hour line would generally credit about 95-100, if everything went smoothly (ie no mechanicals, wx delays, etc.). In the past, I have been able to get more credit by bidding lineholders "reserve", therefore working less and picking up a tradeboard trip.
I really don't know what an "average" person credits. It really depends. Do you want weekends off? Are you a commuter? Do you bid for specific days off or overnights? Or do you bid simply for credit time? I went simply for credit time after reserve and as a junior FO I was doing 90-105 credit hours a month.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Keep in mind we ARE playing fairly. We use the contract language to our advantage. Why is it my problem if the airplane breaks down? Why shouldn't I get paid? Was it my fault the plane was written up 3 times in a row but not technically fixed? No. Should I not be paid for weather cancels? It's not my problem there are storms in the area. Same goes for any other scheduling action - taking away a trip to do OE. Why should I not get paid for that? It was on my line, I bid it, it was awarded, I should get paid. If they were to take away a 4-day trip without pay I would lose $900+!!
ComplexHiAv8r
Well-Known Member
OK, sounded like some were activating the wheel earily to get the block clock running, got caught, company changed policy so it didnt happen again.
Everything else, you should be paid for all that about. You bid the line. My comments were based on the comments of bidding for less time worked for more pay. I understand that you can and it is part of the game, it is just comments like that I think bring the profession down.
I think the airlines should change their operations to maximize a pilot to the FAA yearly number, pay the block to the pilot (or credit, or whatever you call it), base block from punch in at airport to airplane empty at the end of the day. (I think you should get paid between flights too!) That and reduce a duty day to 12 hours max. Might only make $10/hr as a first year FO, but would bank alot more then now, have more rest (as it is needed) and a more united work force.
Maybe I should move into management
OK, sounded like some were activating the wheel earily to get the block clock running, got caught, company changed policy so it didnt happen again.
Everything else, you should be paid for all that about. You bid the line. My comments were based on the comments of bidding for less time worked for more pay. I understand that you can and it is part of the game, it is just comments like that I think bring the profession down.
I think the airlines should change their operations to maximize a pilot to the FAA yearly number, pay the block to the pilot (or credit, or whatever you call it), base block from punch in at airport to airplane empty at the end of the day. (I think you should get paid between flights too!) That and reduce a duty day to 12 hours max. Might only make $10/hr as a first year FO, but would bank alot more then now, have more rest (as it is needed) and a more united work force.
Maybe I should move into management
Pilots do not necessarily get paid for their time at the airport, not flying, but in some sense, they do. That is why hourly rates are higher than what salary that hourly rate brings in. For example, a 2nd year FO making $40,000; Someone in a typical job, working 40-50 hours a week, two years into their career, and pulling in $40,000, would be making roughly $19 per hour. The 2nd year FO is making $35 per hour, which makes up for the time sitting at the airport, in some ways. BUT, I do agree some compesation for time at the airport, not flying, other than per diem, should be given. Even if only several dollars, it would still help a first year FO, especially.
Fly4Pay
New Member
While, like most folks, I want to get paid as much as possible for what I do, the comment above is kinda funny if you think about it....
Who in the non-flying world gets 200 grand AND 8 days off a month? At that pay scale, you're looking at a doctor or lawyer who likely works six days a week (sometimes seven) and 16 hour days, most likely. Given that there are 9 weekend days in September, that would mean that doctor only had FOUR days off!
Maybe the comment was meant tongue-in-cheek, and if so, I apologize. But make sure you take a look at the outside world, too.
Flyin's GOOD, man--enjoy it!
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
I must not of explained very well.
<check PM's>
As far as paying for time at the airport, we sort of do (indirectly). Here we have what's known as a "duty rig", which basically guarantees us 1/2 our duty time.
So if we were on duty for 12 hours, I would be guaranteed 6 hours of pay. That's the bare minimum what we are paid. Of course, if we fly more than 6 hours that day we are paid whichever is more.
There is a duty rig, trip rig, min day pay, and other things that go into what each day credits. It gets kinda complicated to explain over a forum.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Funny thing about that. Not to bash Mesa... well, yeah, to bash Mesa... they are always calling ramp requesting push and calling their out time of 5 to 10 minutes ago. How can they be out if they haven't pushed yet? Grr.. And the funny thing is they STILL have the worst on time performance in the US Express system.
Not to mention that very few people make anywhere close to that outside of aviation, to begin with, even many doctors do not. Many people work 12+ hours a day, sometimes 6 days per week, for the same salary, or less, than a regional captain; lets say $80K. I know a regional captain who fly's the bare minimum, purposely, makes $70K per year, and gets 16 days off per month. What other job is going to pay that for only working half, or not even half the month. It does, sometimes, help to put things into perspective.
The only down side, is the other 12-14 days of the month, he is probably never, or rarely home.
FlyChicaga
Vintage Restoration
That is a key point in my argument. Why make big bucks if you are never home to enjoy it?
ComplexHiAv8r
Well-Known Member
True, very true. Its NOT about the money!
ComplexHiAv8r
Well-Known Member
Sounds like a killer EXCEL spreadsheet to make sure your getting what you deserve. That is why I like billing the client for every hour worked, now if I could just get my employer to pay me for ever hour worked, or actually for ANY hour worked.