Fifi flies again!

[USMCmech]

He was reckless. He was in a rush to get it out of there due to weather and hadn't secured a generator in the rear of the plane, and didn't even have fire extinguishers on standyby for the fire that consumed the airplane. It had been up there for nearly 50 years at the time, whats one more year?

That is more than a fair critisim with his plan. I personally think he should have waited till the next summer, finished the work, and flown it out of dry land. However that is hindsite talking.

He made a judgement call. One that cost him dearly personally, and financially.

I hope you never have to make a judgement call that turns out badly, but as pilots that is the risk we take every time we fly.

Greenamayer has a history of reckless operations. .....

Risking life for a record attempt, when you know what the problem is and can fix it, nah, that aint wreckless, or nuts.

Taking large and/or stupid risks with you own life is your own buisness.

The Red Bull air races are/were a tragedy waiting to happen. Oshkosh kills a handful of pilots every year. Pilots die in airshows every year. There is no justifiable reason to climb Mt Everest, but people do and people die every year. Base jumping, horseback riding, high school football, swimming, driving to the grocery store.

All of these activities kill people every year.

Nobody gets out of this game alive.

 

[Hacker15e]

In his bearcat that he was setting records in, he had to reseal the fuel tank numerous times because he was doing half ass work, and wear an icepack on his chest because he hadn't properlly sealed the engine compartment and was experincing temps of 200 deg. in the cockpit while attemptng records. Risking life for a record attempt, when you know what the problem is and can fix it, nah, that aint wreckless, or nuts.

You don't know much about unlimited air racers, do ya?

Cockpit temps like that are *standard* among those racers, even among the big Mustang, Bearcat, and Sea Fury racers currently operating. Most of the big guns these days wear cool suits that were pioneered by the other motorsports in the 1980s (and didn't exist when he was flying Conquest I). That's not evidence in any way of Greenamayer having poor planning, poor maintenance, reckless operations, etc. That's just a factor of running big pistons at 100+" of manifold pressure, with ADI, etc, for the length of a race.

Care to elaborate on this whole "sealing" of the engine compartment? I've spent a lot of time around unlimited air racers and I've never heard of such a thing.

 

[mshunter]

You don't know much about unlimited air racers, do ya?

Cockpit temps like that are *standard* among those racers, even among the big Mustang, Bearcat, and Sea Fury racers currently operating. Most of the big guns these days wear cool suits that were pioneered by the other motorsports in the 1980s (and didn't exist when he was flying Conquest I). That's not evidence in any way of Greenamayer having poor planning, poor maintenance, reckless operations, etc. That's just a factor of running big pistons at 100+" of manifold pressure, with ADI, etc, for the length of a race.

Care to elaborate on this whole "sealing" of the engine compartment? I've spent a lot of time around unlimited air racers and I've never heard of such a thing.

Actually I do know a little bit. More than you might think. And 1st degree burns on your hands are not par for the course in an unlimited. Hot temos, yes (neighborhood of 140F). But 200 plus, and exhaust stains in the cockpit are not. And 100+ inches manifold pressure? Try more like 70-75" for the majority.

You don't know much about unlimited air racers, do ya?

Do some reading before you patronize. :whatever: What makes you the resident expert?

I'm on my way out the door right now, but I'll post my info when I get back.

Edit real quick: When he set the record in Conquest I, a little know fact was that he was using nitromethane (not nitrous) to get the horse power up. And when he won in that airplane it was a borrowed engine. He blew a cylinder off, repaired it and it siezed on the run up after repairs. I think it lasted 4 minutes.

 

[Hacker15e]

Actually I do know a little bit. More than you might think.

Well, feel free to go ahead and school me, then. I happen to have just a little bit of experience in this area, as well.

 

[mshunter]

Well, feel free to go ahead and school me, then. I happen to have just a little bit of experience in this area, as well.

Nah, you know what, your throwing your weight around. Show us where that comes from.

Recognize this airplane?

See where it was taken? Not out in the open, thats for sure. It was taken where it resides, in it's hanger.

FWIW, I never called you out. You came in here being snide and abase, not me.

 

[Okie_Pilot]

Dang guys, no need to start measuring lengths here. Where's the love?

 

[mshunter]

Dang guys, no need to start measuring lengths here. Where's the love?

Don't look at me, I was beeing friendly.:dunno:

 

[Hacker15e]

Fair enough, we'll play nice.

While it's pretty dang cool that you apparently have experience with Nemesis NXT, and perhaps with Mr Sharp, I don't know how that relates to the unlimiteds.

Building, maintaining, and campaigning an unlimited in the 1960s has very little to do with the F1 or Sport Class today. What might today be considered reckless or wild in retrospect wasn't quite as clear back in the day. Sharp clearly took his classes of racing to an entirely new level, and it's just not realistic to compare anything Greenamyer did against such a backdrop. There are rooms full of other Reno pilots, owners, and builders who would fit in that exact same category by that standard. A lot of what those guys did in the 1960s and 1970s in the unlimiteds can be looked at today as being pretty wild, stupid, etc...but at the time, given what they knew then, it wasn't.

Do any present-day personality clashes with Mr Greenamyer and his participation in the Sport Class influence your opinion of what he did 30 years ago? He's always had, shall we say, a strong personality, and had a very public and very real rivalry with Lyle Shelton back in the day. I know he's had similar personality clashes with his Sport Class participation, too.

 

[Orange Anchor]

Recognize this airplane?

.

It's the new Cessna sport plane. On steroids. Lots of steroids.

 

[mshunter]

Fair enough, we'll play nice.

While it's pretty dang cool that you apparently have experience with Nemesis NXT, and perhaps with Mr Sharp, I don't know how that relates to the unlimiteds.

Building, maintaining, and campaigning an unlimited in the 1960s has very little to do with the F1 or Sport Class today. What might today be considered reckless or wild in retrospect wasn't quite as clear back in the day. Sharp clearly took his classes of racing to an entirely new level, and it's just not realistic to compare anything Greenamyer did against such a backdrop. There are rooms full of other Reno pilots, owners, and builders who would fit in that exact same category by that standard. A lot of what those guys did in the 1960s and 1970s in the unlimiteds can be looked at today as being pretty wild, stupid, etc...but at the time, given what they knew then, it wasn't.

Do any present-day personality clashes with Mr Greenamyer and his participation in the Sport Class influence your opinion of what he did 30 years ago? He's always had, shall we say, a strong personality, and had a very public and very real rivalry with Lyle Shelton back in the day. I know he's had similar personality clashes with his Sport Class participation, too.

I have no comment on what has been said about Greernamayer in those hangers.

But, where does your up-close and personal experince come from. Beeing around John Sharp has let me mingle with people from all walks of racing. From the very basic to the unlimited's.

 

[mshunter]

It's the new Cessna sport plane. On steroids. Lots of steroids.

He still won't let on what that thing actually did on the dyno. But I do know it's a ton! He took it down to Tuscon(IIRC) a while back. ATC kept asking "What kind of experimental is that?!?"

He told me his reply was "A fast one!"

BTW, the cockpit is not much bigger than a 150. But when you cover ground at 400kts, carry enough fuel for only about 2 hours, and look that cool doing it, who cares.

 

[WacoFan]

Ok bitches...I trump all of you because I worked in the GeeBee factory back in the day...so there!

Actually, Nemesis, the Thunder Mustang, and the Sport Class in general really blow up my skirt. I'm a huge afficiando of the "Golden Age" of air racing - and it personally irritates me to see former military machines hacked up and used for unlimiteds - not just because of the machines being modified, but to me - the coolest part - was that guys would build things in small hangers (the Granville Brothers, Travel Air with the Mystery Ship, Matty Laird, etc) and would then go out and absolutely stomp on the fastest military planes of the day. That, to me, was the amazing thing. To me, the coolest think that could happen would be for a scratch built airplane to be designed and built and then go out and kill the unlimiteds. It would be fine if the machine could be powered by a Merlin of huge Pratt or a Wright, but I'd love to see something that wasn't surplus kick some ass. I am biased because I was lucky enough to hang around with Harold Neumann (Winner of the 1935 Thompson Trophy in Mr. Mulligan) and Matty Laird when I was younger.

And OA - Cessna built an airplane that is on my list to build when I have unlimited funds (I have a list of machines that I will either build replica's of, or find and restore. This Cessna CR-3 is high on the list - a racer:

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

And OA - Cessna built an airplane that is on my list to build when I have unlimited funds (I have a list of machines that I will either build replica's of, or find and restore. This Cessna CR-3 is high on the list - a racer:

Its like a 195 FWF bolted to a 120 fuselage and wings. I bet that thing can move. Jacob radial?

 

[WacoFan]

Its like a 195 FWF bolted to a 120 fuselage and wings. I bet that thing can move. Jacob radial?

First one had a 110hp Warner - because that's all the money Clyde and Eldon Cessna could afford. It would do 150+ with the 110 Warner. Then, after winning a couple races and placing in some others they built another one and modified the existing one and they put 145hp Warners on. Johnny Livingston set a two-way record at 237mph in one of those. Livingston had a gear extension failure on his and chose to bail out rather than land and the other one had the cowling rip off and smash into the wing during a race, causing a vicious snap-roll into the ground, killing Clyde Cessna's good friend Roy Ligget who was flying the plane. Clyde witnessed the accident and it soured him on aviation and he retired to his farm, leaving the company in the hands of his nephew Dwayne Wallace (who I also had the pleasure of spending time with - he would fly his Airmaster to Blakesburg - he was the only owner and the airplane had never been restored, just continuously maintained since new). Wallace build Cessna from 1934 until the advent of the Citation series which is when he retired. The CR-1,2,3 airplanes (CR stood for Cessna Racer) were part of the airplanes that were very fast for their power - like the Howard Ike, Mike, and Pete, and the Clip-wing Monocoupes and Steve Wittmans airplanes - and could compete in the lower-power classes (under 500 Cu. inches) as well as compete to limited effect in the unlimited horsepower classes. Look how tiny the machine is in the first pic, with the guy standing next to it. The airplane had an 18ft wing span, and was about 14ft long and weighed around 700lbs with a gross of around 1200.

 

[Orange Anchor]

And OA - Cessna built an airplane that is on my list to build when I have unlimited funds (I have a list of machines that I will either build replica's of, or find and restore. This Cessna CR-3 is high on the list - a racer:

Back in the day when you had to have a pair the size of bowling balls just to take it around the pattern. WOW...\

We were down at the Weeks' museum earlier this year. Nice little machine.

 

[WacoFan]

Back in the day when you had to have a pair the size of bowling balls just to take it around the pattern. WOW...\

We were down at the Weeks' museum earlier this year. Nice little machine.

Interesting about that GeeBee. That was the replica of the one that Lowell Bayles was killed in - a wing separated on a speed record run. Kimballs built that airplane, and apparently after weeks bought it, and watching the video of the Bayles crash, he decided to have flutter analysis done which revealed some flaws. Apparently those are fixed now and he flies it. You're right - the balls to fly those things had to be immense. Given the diminutive scale of many of these planes I frankly don't know how they shoe-horned the balls into the cockpit.

The Bayles Crash video: http://www.thoughtequity.com/video/clip/1617539_044.do

 

[SteveC]

The Bayles Crash video: http://www.thoughtequity.com/video/clip/1617539_044.do

Man, that's hard to watch.

 

[WacoFan]

Man, that's hard to watch.

Actually, footage has been slowed down and studied frame by frame. What actually happened was that the fuel cap came loose at 300MPH+. The cap went through the windshield, incapacitated Bayles who pitched up abruptly, causing the wing to fail. Kermit Weeks had flutter analysis done and that confirmed that aileron flutter existed at higher speeds.

The fuel cap thing into the noggin is the freaky part. And so began the GeeBee's history of being "snakebit". Bayles body ended up about 300 feet from the wreckage.

 

[mshunter]

The fuel cap thing into the noggin is the freaky part. And so began the GeeBee's history of being "snakebit". Bayles body ended up about 300 feet from the wreckage.

I'd imagine in a few pieces too.

 

[MikeD]

FWIW, I don't like the unlimited class of air racing because I hate seeing P-51s, F8Fs, F4Us and Sea Fury's with clipped wings, flush canopies, etc, looking like they just came out of a south side chop shop, just with a nice paintjob.