Festivus of Merger season

[jynxyjoe]

I have a complaint. I'm receiving entirely too much information from my Mesaba union and reps about this merger. I have a hard time sowing the seeds of discontent if they keep this up. It's fun to see a lot of people so optimistic compared to months ago when we didn't know what was happening. Cautious optimism replaces cautious pessimism.

I do have one honest gripe. Apparently the union has decided to keep "hush-hush" the exact value of the current Pinnacle contract, TA1, or our contract value. They will, however, confirm that the Mesaba contract is, in fact, worth more than TA1.

 

[3enginejock]

I approve of this message.

 

[HVYMETALDRVR]

Hush hush on contract value? This isn't my cup of tea but isn't the Union supposed to share information with the pilots?

 

[jynxyjoe]

Hush hush on contract value? This isn't my cup of tea but isn't the Union supposed to share information with the pilots?

They have in the past. For reasons passing my understanding they will not tell us the numbers until we are done with the merger. If it's some sort of bargaining position that's fine, I elect them to represent me, not bend to every demand I have. I have no doubt that Mesaba reps have our pilot group's best interest in mind.

 

[higney85]

Values are relative when you start looking at "what it's worth"; longevity of those on payroll, number on payroll, various fleets, various benefits, many factors. I will tell you that the numbers will continue to move as everything closes in to a final JCBA. The MSA CBA is worth more than TA1, but that failed on PCL's part. Many of the things worked on in TA1.5 (latest rounds of negotiations prior to ice) were better than MSA and are being used in JCBA negotiations. Many of the areas where PCL contract negotiations hit a wall last time around are already in the MSA CBA. All in all the idea that nobody takes a paycut and every group sees gains will result in a successful JCBA. Each group may want to stick to "their" guns but in the end we are all helping each other to get 31 sections that everyone can approve as their new CBA.

 

[kellwolf]

Ditto what Ken said. I've stopped looking at it as a "Pinnacle contract" or "TA1" or "Mesaba's contract." 'Cause honestly, I've read XJ's contract, and there ARE some things in there that I don't like and would prefer not to have. For example, if someone WANTS to drop him or herself below min days off because they got a crappy 75 hour line, that should be totally up to them. If someone WANTS to trade vacation weeks with another pilot, I feel they should be able to do so. If I commuted, I'd like to be able to use airlines other than Delta and have it count. Now, on the flip side, trip/duty rigs and min day are "must haves" for me (as I sit here over guarantee for the month crediting 1:38 for the entire day today since I did a MEM-ATL DH and an ATL-GSP leg).

On a personal note, it's VERY difficult for me to be optimistic about anything. Like the XJ guys, I was pretty psyched the first time our management said "We'll get it done by this date," too. After hearing it 4 or 5 times, it starts to lose its luster. Now, if they start agreeing to things like compensation, scheduling and retirement and insurance, things may be different. It's hard to get excited about dues check-off being TA'ed, though.....

 

[jtrain609]

No extension clause.

I'll strike without it.

Hell I'll strike for another airline if they don't get it.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Good luck with that one John.... Pinnacle Corp staffs based off of extensions and junior mans, and I'm sure that the negotiating capital required to put that genie back in the bottle isn't cheap.

 

[v1valarob]

For example, if someone WANTS to drop him or herself below min days off because they got a crappy 75 hour line, that should be totally up to them.

On the flip side, you will then have guys who get called from scheduling and are asked if they will work on their day off, and the pilot says "sure, Ill work, but then drop my reserve next friday." So scheduling drops the reserve day, then suddenly after the "volunteered" work is done, that reserve day pops back up. The pilot then emails his scheduling committee bitching about it. The scheduling committee cant help you, because you made a back door deal. Sure you can come up with language that stops this, but how much time are we going to spend on one paragraph of a contract when we need a completely new one?

It also makes the company staff correctly. When they dont have any reserve for a specific day, and everyone is at their min day, they cant just start junior manning people into their day off.

 

[jtrain609]

Good luck with that one John.... Pinnacle Corp staffs based off of extensions and junior mans, and I'm sure that the negotiating capital required to put that genie back in the bottle isn't cheap.

We're willing to spend a lot over at XJT right now. You guys do what you need to do, but if Republic, of all the airlines, has a no extension clause, there is no reason for the rest of us to have one.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

I'd love to have a great contract. That's why I voted no.

I'm also not holding my breath that we actually get a worthy TA, ever, from Pinnacle.

 

[higney85]

On the flip side, you will then have guys who get called from scheduling and are asked if they will work on their day off, and the pilot says "sure, Ill work, but then drop my reserve next friday." So scheduling drops the reserve day, then suddenly after the "volunteered" work is done, that reserve day pops back up. The pilot then emails his scheduling committee bitching about it. The scheduling committee cant help you, because you made a back door deal. Sure you can come up with language that stops this, but how much time are we going to spend on one paragraph of a contract when we need a completely new one?

There is a beauty in recorded calls and the comments page that cannot be erased. Nobody is advocating "back door deals", in actuality what is being desired is a strong contract as a backbone so "wheeling and dealing" ceases. You will ALWAYS have guys try to "game" the system. It's life. Sending a message to pilots that the "union" controls what they can choose to do is dictatorship, not diplomacy. The company should NEVER be able to assign flying on ANY day off, which is what the goal is. To determine what a pilot wants to work on a day off is a personal decision and you, I, or any MEC should not make the decision for said pilot. Now, in language for the pilot group as a whole governing what the company can force or try to assign involuntarily?- That's why there is a union and a contract.

 

[v1valarob]

There is a beauty in recorded calls and the comments page that cannot be erased.

Good luck at Colgan on getting either. Comments are NEVER left on crewtrac, and its a bit one sided when the recorded calls are on the company's end, and not our end. "Oh yea, we'll get to pulling that call next week..." then when it is pulled its the same old story "That scheduler wasn't supposed to do that, we'll give them a talking to."

 

[jynxyjoe]

To determine what a pilot wants to work on a day off is a personal decision and you, I, or any MEC should not make the decision for said pilot. Now, in language for the pilot group as a whole governing what the company can force or try to assign involuntarily?- That's why there is a union and a contract.

Values are relative when you start looking at "what it's worth"; longevity of those on payroll, number on payroll, various fleets, various benefits, many factors. I will tell you that the numbers will continue to move as everything closes in to a final JCBA. The MSA CBA is worth more than TA1, but that failed on PCL's part. Many of the things worked on in TA1.5 (latest rounds of negotiations prior to ice) were better than MSA and are being used in JCBA negotiations. Many of the areas where PCL contract negotiations hit a wall last time around are already in the MSA CBA. All in all the idea that nobody takes a paycut and every group sees gains will result in a successful JCBA. Each group may want to stick to "their" guns but in the end we are all helping each other to get 31 sections that everyone can approve as their new CBA.

You may call it "sticking to my guns" or whatever polite phrase you can conjure. How many of your pilots are going below min days to make up for poor schedules? Is it about 20 or 30%?

There is no reason for Pinnacle make productive schedules if they know enough pilots will make up for crappy planning. No one going below 10 day's off adds to everyone's QOL over here, and it's one more hurdle in front of the company against low staffing levels. Too authoritarian? Not for me.

This is a bullet issue for me. You've had a lot of time to create your strawman and I've read your posts on other boards. Obviously you are convinced. Your reasoning does not convince me, and I do think it's a unions job to encourage appropriate staffing levels. It's a personal decision to go below your min days, it's a personal decision to individually bargain. You're just creating an avenue to do that.

/example
Tomorrow, in the Mesaba POM, there will be a revision: "You may not make an unstabilized approach below 1000' in course to landing. However, if you just don't feel like making a stabilized approach, or you're tired of not having any fun for the last 1000' then go ahead and make stuff up as you go." You see Mesaba has a lot of pilots, some 30%, who don't want to follow standard approach criteria. Now, the glorious company has made an avenue for pilots to do whatever the hell they please, and it's still legal. Thank God for their wizened approach to letting us screw ourselves. Following SOP's is a personal decision.
/example end

Maybe not a perfect example, but I thought it would be something you could grab onto.

There are sacrifices to working for a union company, but you do it because it's good for the profession. The profession is not helped by 6 days off a month, voluntary or otherwise. Someday I hope you see that.

 

[surreal1221]

^ +1 ...

 

[Stryder]

You may call it "sticking to my guns" or whatever polite phrase you can conjure. How many of your pilots are going below min days to make up for poor schedules? Is it about 20 or 30%?

There is no reason for Pinnacle make productive schedules if they know enough pilots will make up for crappy planning. No one going below 10 day's off adds to everyone's QOL over here, and it's one more hurdle in front of the company against low staffing levels. Too authoritarian? Not for me.
There are sacrifices to working for a union company, but you do it because it's good for the profession. The profession is not helped by 6 days off a month, voluntary or otherwise. Someday I hope you see that.

There is reason if you put it in the contract. Our last TA made it so you can not be forced to go below 10 days off. That is a huge step in the right direction. Make it 11 and you cant be forced to work below 11 and its even better. The TA also said that if you volunteer to go below 10 days off it would pay you 150% pay for the flying PLUS 5 hours all on top of guarantee. If there is someone out there that wants to work on their days off then that is their choice. I do not want the union to tell me that I cant do it if it is safe and legal. We all like as pilots the autonomy of our jobs. A lot of what we do is left up to how we want to do it. Putting in the contract something that says pilots can not pick up stuff on their days off sounds like something management would put in there, not our fellow pilots.

On a side note right now at pinnacle its not that people are voluntarily going below 10 days off. I would say ALL of the people who have been worked below 10 days off are not there by choice. That is why we need hard days off and give the pilots the option to change it, at the companies expense. I don't understand the attitude of taking away the pilots right to decided what he/she wants to do with their time.

 

[higney85]

We agree to disagree. I talk with a good number of pilots I represent and have bounced this issue openly and simply as "Hey, do you want your days off to be golden?" the answer is always "yes". When I then ask "do you care about limitations about how much extra flying you can do on days off by your own decision?" I have yet to have a pilot tell me they want restrictions. Personally it doesn't bother me in the least either way- I don't typically shop open time for any reason beyond having to try and swap a trip to get a day off. I would be open to a hard number "down to" but not a unilateral restriction based off initial bid awards. If a guy has a 12 day off 95 hour line and another guy has an 18 day off 75 hour line why should the 75 hour guy not be allowed to pick up flying if he wants or needs? The 12 day off can't pick up much anyway, the 18 day off guy could easily pick up something. Nobody is advocating a "forcing" of more work, but who is anyone to tell a guy he can't? Just because someone may be "senior" in the seat that pilot should not be limited on working more. Face it, the 95 hour line for the junior person is probably now worth more than the 75 hour line (in money terms) to the senior guy. The union protects the pilots from what the company, limiting what guys can work (within the contract) now tries to put up walls within our own pilots. What's the gain? I understand the staffing concern- if PBS is limited in open time remaining when bids are awarded the company will still need to staff appropriately. Ask Pinnacle reserves how much they work already- that would continue forever if the flying can't be covered by the lineholders who would like to do it. I'm open to suggestions and new ideas, but the idea of limiting what a pilot can work (still within the contractual rules, I am strongly against waiving ANY contractual language) is not something my pilots have shown any interest.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Joe,

The union is there to protect me from the company. Through a good contract, they can do that. Don't tell me what I can and can't do though, as a union, when it comes to working extra.

 

[jynxyjoe]

The union is there to protect me from the company. Through a good contract, they can do that. Don't tell me what I can and can't do though, as a union, when it comes to working extra.

Ah. Then the union has only obligations to you, and not to the profession. Excellent! There certainly are disadvantages to being in a union, the major one being, that it is not all about you.

Someday, I hope, you can see that focusing on the profession is more important.

If a guy has a 12 day off 95 hour line and another guy has an 18 day off 75 hour line why should the 75 hour guy not be allowed to pick up flying if he wants or needs?

So in your example you have two line holders and one has a min of 18 days off and the other has 12? Or are we doing examples that have nothing to do with min days off? Nope you are saying "unilateral restriction based off initial bid awards" which has nothing to do with any example thusfar, in fact everything afterwards seems like a long ramble on nothing to do with anything we've discussed thusfar.

I have a collection here of some of the rest of your reasoning and I have done my best to break it down through direct quotes and paraphrasing.

No one is advocating forcing anyone to work. Obviously, and we aren't on that road.
Another example based off PBS bidding days off turned into some sort of lock and key. I have no idea where you are, I have no interest in a "lock and key". That isn't the way our system works now nor should it be in the future.
Furthering your example into PBS pref bidding, which people error at, and it again has nothing to do with 11 days off a month. I have no idea where you are going.
The union protects the pilots from what the company, limiting what guys can work (within the contract) now tries to put up walls within our own pilots. That isn't what ours does, it's just a hurdle to chronic understaffing.
I understand the staffing concern... I don't think you do understand the advantages of our contract as it influences staffing models.
Ask Pinnacle reserves how much they work already- that would continue forever if the flying can't be covered by the lineholders who would like to do it. That or more people would be hired, if I understand where you are going and I don't think I do.

It seems like you've tangled a contractual minimum with picking up open days in your head. You can pick up open times, just don't go below your contract min. If that means you pick up 8 more days, well God bless you. Hope it is all time and a half.

This is one of those rare occasions that I wish we'd been talking face to face. Perhaps when you started on your example of the 18 day off guy and the 12 day off guy I could have stopped you and we wouldn't be here. Instead I'm trying to sift through your piecemeal examples. You'll have to find another example to get your point across. Simply: 11 days off scheduled, 10 days minimum a month. Yes the union is telling you that you can't go below 10 days a month. If you have 18 days off and you wanna pick up two 4 days (Jesus why?), go nuts. You want to pick up three 3 days? Negatron.

We agree to disagree.

That is assured- but I'm not sure we know exactly why.

In closing, the union has an obligation to preserving the profession. That means QOL as much as it means pay. If we are going to go down to 4-10 days off a month, what's the god damn point of calling this a profession? I can do that all by myself without a union, and I'll keep that 1.95% too. I did it at Colgan.

 

[v1valarob]

Im discussing going under min days off voluntarily. Not picking up open time on your days off that dont bring you below min days. If you have 18 days off, and your contract says "you must have 10 days off!" then you can, by the contract pick up 8 days of OT if you wish to.

I have seen guys at 9L go down to as little as 5 or 6 days off in a month. Piss poor staffing.