Feds Wrong - Pilot Photo ID IS 'Economically Significant'

[Barty]

Re: Feds Wrong - Pilot Photo ID IS 'Economically Significant

This is an idiotic argument. As others have said, we pay just as much for other licenses, so why the big deal with this one?

In what state do you pay $100 for a driver's license? Most I've ever heard of is about $20-30 for an initial issue, then anywhere from $10-30 for a 5-6 year renewal.

My state issued driver's license has my photo, and they take my thumb print at time of renewal as well. An existing form of identification exists that meets the required standard, maintaining the policy in effect right now has the same net effect without increasing the financial and time burden on anyone.

This is a solution looking for a problem, IMHO.

 

[TWP]

Re: Feds Wrong - Pilot Photo ID IS 'Economically Significant

How about the guys who have no problem paying float the rest of us some money. I mean, I don't really need it with all this sweet cfi cash I am pulling in it's just the principle of the matter.

Hey, we pay for other stuff we shouldn't be paying for anyway so what is the big deal getting bent over a little more?

C'mon guys, I like you, but that is ridiculous.

 

[wheelsup]

Re: Feds Wrong - Pilot Photo ID IS 'Economically Significant

So if this is a response to a terror type threat, and it excludes temp certificates, why couldn't a "terrorist" just simply photoshop a temp certificate to get around it? What exactly is this going to accomplish but add additional cost, burden, and red tape to our society?

A simple Google search turns up several dozen as examples.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Re: Feds Wrong - Pilot Photo ID IS 'Economically Significant

Think... Global.

Even better...

In what state do you pay $100 for a driver's license? Most I've ever heard of is about $20-30 for an initial issue, then anywhere from $10-30 for a 5-6 year renewal.

In the People's Republic of California, my DL renewal costs me $31 this year and is good for (I think) 10 years now that I'm >21. I'd say we're on the high end of the fee range.

Why do folks think we need photos on our licenses? Do they think we get pulled over by the sky police when we get caught doing 260 below 10,000'?

Maybe it would be nice to have a uniform credential for people who are supposed to be in places the public aren't. One that could easily be glanced at, "yep, that's you, and yes, you're supposed to be here" arrived at easily. I'm very, very interested in identity assurance... (So is the Federal government, although their HSPD 12 implementation is lacking.)

I can make a good argument for putting all of the information on one card, along with some biometric information even. If only there was some form of uniform identification for transportation workers. (Yes, I know that's maritime security, but I believe the idea has some merit in the aviation business.)

That said, I don't like the cost to the individual pilot here.

 

[LV-ARG]

Re: Feds Wrong - Pilot Photo ID IS 'Economically Significant

nothing to do with the thread but would an expired drivers license sufice the "govt issued photo id" requirement?

 

[derg]

Re: Feds Wrong - Pilot Photo ID IS 'Economically Significant

Meh, leave the licenses alone. All I need is yet another picture that I'll stop resembling in 5 years.

More "HOLY COW! Lookit that mf'ing STACHE!" photos.

 

[kellwolf]

Re: Feds Wrong - Pilot Photo ID IS 'Economically Significant

Maybe it would be nice to have a uniform credential for people who are supposed to be in places the public aren't. One that could easily be glanced at, "yep, that's you, and yes, you're supposed to be here" arrived at easily. I'm very, very interested in identity assurance... (So is the Federal government, although their HSPD 12 implementation is lacking.)

I've got two of those: a SIDA badge for the airport I'm based out of and a crew ID badge for the others. It's been working just fine for the past 5 years. in It's not exactly "uniform" since airline IDs vary and someone from ATL has a different SIDA badge than someone from MEM, but the people that are responsible for security (aka the ones in the secure and restricted areas) know enough to see what's NOT supposed to be there. Plus, both of those IDs didn't cost me a dime.

I'm a big supporter of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." We're required to carry a government issued photo ID as it is right now. I don't see what the REAL, HONEST difference between that and requiring everyone to re-do what's already working by charging them to get a picture on their license. All you're doing is moving the picture from one already existing ID, creating a large headache and beauracracy and putting it on a different piece of plastic. It's unnecessary and wasteful. I thought the government was trying to cut down on that?

 

[Barty]

Re: Feds Wrong - Pilot Photo ID IS 'Economically Significant

It's unnecessary and wasteful. I thought the government was trying to cut down on that?

Look at the AOPA article and see who is pushing it. An agency that has absolutely no regard for either.

 

[Mike H]

Re: Feds Wrong - Pilot Photo ID IS 'Economically Significant

the Society of Aviation and Flight Educators has at least taken a position

FAA Photo Certificates Could Cost Instructors $210 Biennially

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from Robert Hadow, concerned SAFE member, flight school owner, instructor:



On November 19, 2010, the FAA issued a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM), Docket No. FAA-2010-1127, Notice No. 2010-16, entitled Photo Requirements for Pilot Certificates. Key elements in this NPRM and in additional documents include:

• A proposal of $50 per new certificate and $25 per replacement.
• A requirement that student pilots wait 6-8 weeks to get a certificate before solo.
• A claim that the new certificate fee represents no net cost to society.
• An assertion that the proposed photo procedure is "in the interest of reducing burdens on the certificate holder..."
• A claim that foreign pilots holding U.S. certificates would incur no additional travel expense as a result of having to visit a testing center, FSDO, or DPE.
• An assertion that there is "no additional expense to CFIs" as a result of the initiative because we also hold Commercial Certificates or ATP certificates; the NPRM, however, describes CFI certificates separately. If the NPRM language remains, CFIs will have to pay $210 for a new CFI certificate every two years when they renew.
• An FAA estimated total cost of $718.7 million to implement photo certificates.

Here is the list of costs estimated by the FAA per new certificate:

FAA charge $50.00
Photo at CVS $8.00

Testing Center $42.50

Pilot Time $80.60 (130 minutes at $37.20 per hour)

Travel $29.25 (50 miles)

Total $210.35




The Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act (IRTPA) requires the FAA to issue pilot's licenses with photographs. Now the FAA has a legal reason to replace the certificate system a second time in six years, and sees an opportunity to increase fees and staffing. What we need to do is point out the errors in logic and try to get something that works, rather than a regression to a paper-based 8710 system with silver prints requiring a physical visit to a FSDO or testing center.

We can urge Congress to change the IRTPA, or we can urge the FAA to adopt an implementation that is less costly and burdensome than the current proposal. If we don't respond, we're likely to get a system that costs $210 every time a pilot certificate or flight instructor certificate (new or renewal) needs to be issued!

General comments are due at the Department of Transportation on or before February 17, 2011; however, comments related to data collection and cost need to be submitted no later than January 18th. SAFE is preparing an official response to the NPRM, and we are soliciting input from members. You are urged to weigh in on this issue by January 14th by submitting the NPRM comment form posted on the SAFE website.

View the text of the NPRM:
http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=FAA-2010-1127-0001

View other comments posted on regulations.gov:
http://www.regulations.gov/#!searchResults;rpp=10;so=DESC;sb=postedDate;po=0;s=FAA-2010-1127[/quote]

 

[nosehair]

Re: Feds Wrong - Pilot Photo ID IS 'Economically Significant

would an expired drivers license sufice the "govt issued photo id" requirement?

nope. must be current.

 

[AeroT]

Re: Feds Wrong - Pilot Photo ID IS 'Economically Significant

I got ramp checked today and asked the feds about the possibility of this happening. They said it's not going to happen because the cost is to high. They are considering a switch to the European license which has your drivers, passport, and pilot license all in one little booklet.

 

[AngelFuree]

Re: Feds Wrong - Pilot Photo ID IS 'Economically Significant

You have to pay for every other government issued license, why should this be different?

This is an idiotic argument. As others have said, we pay just as much for other licenses, so why the big deal with this one?

Wow. Please go.

In what state do you pay $100 for a driver's license? Most I've ever heard of is about $20-30 for an initial issue, then anywhere from $10-30 for a 5-6 year renewal.

My state issued driver's license has my photo, and they take my thumb print at time of renewal as well. An existing form of identification exists that meets the required standard, maintaining the policy in effect right now has the same net effect without increasing the financial and time burden on anyone.

This is a solution looking for a problem, IMHO.

Precisely.

 

[mshunter]

Re: Feds Wrong - Pilot Photo ID IS 'Economically Significant

The consistant problem that I am see ing in this thread with poster who are in favor of this new regulation is that they lack a solid argument for why we need a new system for one that currently isn't broken. And with that I am giving up on posting more because my phone doesn't like the new layout.

 

[Hacker15e]

Re: Feds Wrong - Pilot Photo ID IS 'Economically Significant

Wow. Please go.

Please go where?

I don't happen to think it's a problem to have to pay more for a different kind of license. Holy crap, this is the document that most of us make our living with...we pay more than this just to take the written exam portion of our ratings, and we have to even do that multiple times, and don't think anything of that.

I just don't get the nickel-and-dime vehemence against the plan.

I see the opposition for the CFI renewal (although I think the accounting in the post above, especially the "pilot's time" portion and the FAA "estimation" of what they think a pilot center will charge you, is a little off) because you have to get a new one every couple years. Other than that, though....

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Re: Feds Wrong - Pilot Photo ID IS 'Economically Significant

Hacker, what is the point? What is wrong with what we have now?

 

[Zondaracer]

Re: Feds Wrong - Pilot Photo ID IS 'Economically Significant

My birth certificate doesn't have my photo on it. Neither does my social security card. My credit card works kind of like my pilot's licence... No photo on it but I can provide another photo ID to prove my identity.

The only advantage I really see to adding my picture to the pilot's licence is that nobody will confuse Orville and Wilbur's watermark for my picture anymore when I show off my licence to my in-laws

 

[Hacker15e]

Re: Feds Wrong - Pilot Photo ID IS 'Economically Significant

Hacker, what is the point? What is wrong with what we have now?

I'm not particularly for the change...I'm just not against it, and I don't understand the huge opposition to it.

 

[Hacker15e]

Re: Feds Wrong - Pilot Photo ID IS 'Economically Significant

Neither does my social security card.

Never intended to be used for identification, and used to be marked as such.

 

[mshunter]

Re: Feds Wrong - Pilot Photo ID IS 'Economically Significant

I'm not particularly for the change...I'm just not against it, and I don't understand the huge opposition to it.

I don't understand why you don't see the opposition to it. It's another thing to have to keep up with, and means another day of my life that I will never get back if I have to go and spend it traveling to and from the FSDO, sitting in more than likely what will become a line, and having to deal with some FSDO's that are simply too busy to help poeple out. Remeber the post a while back where a CFI couldn't renew his certificates because the FSDO was too busy? What is this going to do to them?

I just don't see the point in all of this. Are there really people who are making fake certificates? Is it that hard to check someones FAA credintials? With all the PRIA paper work, FCC licences, and photo ID's, is this even an issue that needs to be looked at. Has anyone ever gotten into a cockpit with a falsified certificate to "terrorize" the skies? If thats their goal, they aren't going to go through all that trouble, the will just take over forcefully. With the technology we have today, this is a non-issue, and a waste of money. I understand the security involved, but with the background checks involved with flying anything signifigant, why fix it if it 'aint broken!?

 

[Barty]

Re: Feds Wrong - Pilot Photo ID IS 'Economically Significant

I'm not particularly for the change...I'm just not against it, and I don't understand the huge opposition to it.

Because there is absolutely nothing wrong with what is in place today. It does nothing to enhance security and adds a totally unnecessary expense to what is an already expensive hobby/career. To justify it by pointing out the money people spend on flight training already is stupid, IMHO. Yes, it is expensive, but I don't know very many people who would openly welcome something that makes flying even more expensive for the hell of it.