Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evidence

[Krieger]

Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide

WHAT! This post can't be serious. I do agree that no amount of money will make right what happened with 3407. But this post is so draconian. If you want personal responsibility like this, then move to a 3rd world country. We should be able to climb on an airplane and trust that the two people up front are going to do their best to get us to wherever we want to go safely. Man, I wish I didn't have to get ready for work right now. I can't belive someone would post something like this.

Edit to add: While were at it, why don't we rid this country of service like firefighter's, paramedics and police, and take responsibility for fighting forest fires, keeping murderers off the streets and declare Marshal Law.

Pfffft! You are missing my point. You can't climb on an airplane and trust to be 100% safe. You are choosing to take a calculated risk. Airplanes are statistically safe, but people still have a good reason to be afraid to fly. It's hard to walk away from a plane crash.

I'm not saying that the colgan victims families should not be financially compensated. They should be. I'm just saying that if you choose your calculated risks more cautiously, you might live longer. Whatever choice you make, whether it was to bare back that skank that gave you herpes the night before, or take an unlucky seat on flight 3407, in some way, your personal choices put you there.

So my original post was more about personal responsibility and self preservation than anything else. I in no way am saying that the crash was any of the victims total fault, but they did pay a price for taking a calculated risk. And some fault must be factored in.

 

[NickH]

Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide

"They're hired to exercise good judgement in all aspects of their employment."

And a jury of pilots would spend hours debating the judgment displayed by showing up for the interview.

 

[mshunter]

Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide

Whatever choice you make, whether it was to bare back that skank that gave you herpes the night before

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

I get what you mean now. I edited the rest of the post, which was good, but that right there is funny!

 

[BajtheJino]

Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide

Personally, I don't think the final actions of the crew with bring about as much damage in the suit as the words they shared while still at the gate.

The CVR has the FO saying she felt unfit for duty, but given extreme financial disincentive to continue, felt her only real choice was go and suck it up and hope for the best.

That's classic 'pilot pushing', and introduces an aspect of culpability to the corporate culture of Colgan Air.

I'll be the first to say I think Colgan is a dirtbag outfit. I don't care if they have a union or that this website is full of Colganites.
But when you say "classic pilot pushing" are you inferring that the FO called in sick and then was threatened by management to fly or lose her job? If not, then, the accusations of pilot pushing are totally false. Now, if you're suggesting that she pushed herself beyond her limits you could argue that the day she decided to take a lesson toward her PPL she was beyond said limits.

I'm not saying that the colgan victims families should not be financially compensated. They should be.

Why? I just don't get this.

 

[derg]

Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide

If you think pilot pushing, folks flying when they're sick and "etc" is special to Colgan, ohhhhhhh boy, just you wait!

But there are good people trying to make things better, and that's they key difference and I'd certainly say the "Folks Trying to Make Things Better : Internet Complainer" ratio is much better there than at a lot of other airlines.

 

[Bandit_Driver]

Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide

If you think pilot pushing, folks flying when they're sick and "etc" is special to Colgan, ohhhhhhh boy, just you wait!

But there are good people trying to make things better, and that's they key difference and I'd certainly say the "Folks Trying to Make Things Better : Internet Complainer" ratio is much better there than at a lot of other airlines.

Good Post Doug. I know a few guys their that are busting their butt to make things better for everyone there.

"Pilot Pushing" goes on at just about every airline to some degree IMO.

 

[MikeD]

Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide

I'll be the first to say I think Colgan is a dirtbag outfit. I don't care if they have a union or that this website is full of Colganites.
But when you say "classic pilot pushing" are you inferring that the FO called in sick and then was threatened by management to fly or lose her job? If not, then, the accusations of pilot pushing are totally false. Now, if you're suggesting that she pushed herself beyond her limits you could argue that the day she decided to take a lesson toward her PPL she was beyond said limits.

I don't think he means pilot pushing in the sense of one's limits or abilities, I think he means pilot pushing in the sense of not calling in sick when fatigued due to a perception that there will be negative administrative ramifications for doing so.

Either way, that onus is on the pilot and is tough to prove a direct link, unless there is documented evidence that its happened to others. It sucks and we all know it happens, but trying to prove it is very difficult.

Its like trying to prove that one wasn't hired for a job because of discrimination.....very difficult to prove in a court of law.

If you think pilot pushing, folks flying when they're sick and "etc" is special to Colgan, ohhhhhhh boy, just you wait!

But there are good people trying to make things better, and that's they key difference and I'd certainly say the "Folks Trying to Make Things Better : Internet Complainer" ratio is much better there than at a lot of other airlines.

It's not something thats going to be an easy fight......its an uphill battle for sure. But its a battle that needs to be fought, for everyone's safety.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide

I'll be the first to say I think Colgan is a dirtbag outfit. I don't care if they have a union or that this website is full of Colganites.
But when you say "classic pilot pushing" are you inferring that the FO called in sick and then was threatened by management to fly or lose her job? If not, then, the accusations of pilot pushing are totally false. Now, if you're suggesting that she pushed herself beyond her limits you could argue that the day she decided to take a lesson toward her PPL she was beyond said limits.
Why? I just don't get this.

Pilot pushing has been identified and railed against for years. That's why the culture is the problem now. They know they can't flat-out say "fly sick or else!" so they create a situation with so many negative consequences that people get boxed in ahead of time. It's a form of hostile work environment, which is illegal, and in this case, detrimental to safety.

The 'culture of fear' is not conducive to making good decisions. If you don't support the people who work for you and coerce them to toe the line no matter how circumstances vary, people will make mistakes.

 

[Bumblebee]

Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide

They know they can't flat-out say "fly sick or else!" so they create a situation with so many negative consequences that people get boxed in ahead of time. It's a form of hostile work environment, which is illegal, and in this case, detrimental to safety.

The 'culture of fear' is not conducive to making good decisions.

exactly

 

[Bandit_Driver]

Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide

Yup...call in sick get taken off your line...Put on reserve in base and then you are paying for a hotel on your own dime. Or if you call in sick X times you have to have a meeting with mgmt. Despite you have the sick days to do it.

Why you do think when guys call in sick it is usally for 4-5 days...THe company shoots themselve in the foot.

 

[fo4ever]

Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide

The response they made was very close to the appropriate response to a tailplane icing induced incident. If you also recall from the CVR that the FO had become completely stressed from the icing she was seeing, and the captain could very well have become myopic about icing as well.

When you include fatigue, and inexperience (for both of them) it exacerbates the situation.

One line of defense...




both of the above are correct for tailplane stall recovery...and that video had been making the rounds heavily at that time.

My thoughts exactly....

*click*