Fatigued and Pilots

C

ComplexHiAv8r

Well-Known Member
Anyone catch CBS Sunday Morning last week?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/09/sunday/main3919928.shtml


Fatigued? Wake Up And Smell The Coffee

For The Sleep-Deprived (And You Know Who You Are), Here Are Hints On Caffeine And The Power Of Naps


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Who'd you rather fly with? The pilot that's 34 percent better performance and 54 percent more alert? Or the one who's, you know, having lapses and literally micro-sleeps during descent and landing?
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In one experiment, commercial pilots on long-distance routes were analyzed as they took short naps.

After 26 minutes of sleep, performance went up by 34 percent, and their alertness went up by 54 percent.

[And you thought naps were for wimps!]

"See, this is part of our cultural bravado, right? 'I gave that up when I was a kid.' 'What? You wanna do that here, at work? You want some milk? Your jammies, maybe? And a little blankie and stuff?'" Rosekind said. "Instead, you know, I challenge people. Who'd you rather fly with? The pilot that's 34 percent better performance and 54 percent more alert? Or the one who's, you know, having lapses and literally micro-sleeps during descent and landing?"
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Re: Fatiqued and Pilots

I can tell you a thing or two about what fatigue, sleep deficits and living in one time zone while working in a time zone two hours away can do to your body, and it ain't pretty!
 
Re: Fatiqued and Pilots

I can tell you a thing or two about not sleeping for two days, and still being wide awake and able to perform tasks with critical precision, having hundreds of people depending on the accuracy of your map reading and range estimation.
 
Re: Fatiqued and Pilots

I've done flight lessons after not sleeping the entire night and it doesn't really affect me. I actually feel more alert for a couple of hours after not sleeping at night. Sometimes I stay awake all night and then just get two hours of sleep during the day and feel just fine.
 
Re: Fatiqued and Pilots

mtsu_av8er said:
I can tell you a thing or two about not sleeping for two days, and still being wide awake and able to perform tasks with critical precision, having hundreds of people depending on the accuracy of your map reading and range estimation.
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Good thing the Marine Corps doesn't staff airlines eh?
 
Re: Fatiqued and Pilots

mtsu_av8er said:
I can tell you a thing or two about not sleeping for two days, and still being wide awake and able to perform tasks with critical precision, having hundreds of people depending on the accuracy of your map reading and range estimation.
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Just a random question, hope you don't mind.

In your sig it says you have 3,300 TT and yet no ATP certificate. I'm just curious as to why that is.
 
Re: Fatiqued and Pilots

I'm guessing he hasn't needed it as of yet, and he's waiting until somebody else will pay for it when he does need it.
 
Re: Fatiqued and Pilots

BobDDuck said:
I'm guessing he hasn't needed it as of yet, and he's waiting until somebody else will pay for it when he does need it.
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Bingo. I've got over 2500, but why pay my hard earned cash for an ATP cert when my company will pay for the training (and pay me while I'm in training) for said cert AND a type rating?
 
Re: Fatiqued and Pilots

BCTAv8r said:
I've done flight lessons after not sleeping the entire night and it doesn't really affect me. I actually feel more alert for a couple of hours after not sleeping at night. Sometimes I stay awake all night and then just get two hours of sleep during the day and feel just fine.
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The problem isn't as bad when that happens every once and awhile, but when it happens repeatedly for days it can be HUGE. Lack of sleep WILL catch up with you. Some people can cope better than others, but saying fatigue doesn't affect you is a path to ruin man.
 
Re: Fatiqued and Pilots

N8081G said:
Just a random question, hope you don't mind.

In your sig it says you have 3,300 TT and yet no ATP certificate. I'm just curious as to why that is.
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I don't mind at all! ;)

Bob and Kell already answered. I thought about getting it once . . . very seriously about getting it! But then I thought about it - I didn't even pay for half of the crap that I have. Why pay for an ATP? When I need one, my employer will pay for it, and pay me to get it at the same time.

:)
 
Re: Fatiqued and Pilots

I had enough hours for an ATP but just waited until I upgraded too.

50% less checkrides, 50% lower threat of checkride failure and 100% free-hee-hee! ;)

On the topic, I'm a big believer in naps when you need 'em. If you don't, chances are you'll probably end up in 'microsleep' anyway right at the most inopportune moment.

I've got stories, but I'm not putting 'em on the internets! ;)
 
Re: Fatiqued and Pilots

We just got our new fatigue policy. Basically, EVERY fatigue call results in a meeting with a base manager now. You have to file a FSR within 24 hours of the call, and you have to make phone contact with your base manager within 72 hours. If after the meeting, they deem the fatigue call was warranted, things are cool. If they think it wasn't warranted, you get disciplined. Yep. Disciplined for doing what the FAA says to do.

One of these days they'll realize people call in fatigued b/c they are too tired to do their job. It doesn't matter if they have staffing or reserve coverage. I'm sure a lot of these meetings will turn into "Well, why didn't you just sleep all day when you had that CDO that didn't leave until 11 pm b/c of the MX delay? Then you wouldn't have been too tired to fly at 5 am."
 
Re: Fatiqued and Pilots

Smells like "Pilot Pushing".

Wait, that IS pilot pushing.
 
Re: Fatiqued and Pilots

Doug Taylor said:
Smells like "Pilot Pushing".

Wait, that IS pilot pushing.
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Clear cut. So is our sick policy. More than two sick calls in a year? Meeting with the base manager. They've started an attendance incentive program, but a lot of guys are calling it the "Fly sick" program. They don't want you to take time off and get healthy, they want you at work so they can run their lean staffing model. They increased the number of CA reserves in April b/c of the amount of sick calls. It seems to not have even occurred to them it's cold/flu season. The result is you have to got to seniority number 200-something in MEM to find someone with more than 13 days off in MEM as a CA next month. I haven't looked at DTW or MSP, but it's probably pretty bad there, too.

One of the things the irks me the most about management's policies here is how they intimidate you into coming to work when you're sick or fatigued. Nevermind what the FAA says, they need your butt in the seat. So, you're put in a situation where you could do what the FAA says but then have to defend your job for making the right decision.
 
Use the resources PCL pilots

I'd file a NASA report and an ASAP report.

The fed sits there at the ERC meeting and is forced to read it.

If they got about 100 in a month relating to fatigue I think that would be enough to force a change.
 
Re: Use the resources PCL pilots

Robbing Peter to pay Paul...

You know, I haven't had a sick call in almost a year, primarily because with my schedule there's time for me to recover when I'm a little under the weather rather than rolling into another on-duty period.

Give 'em hell, Kell.
 
They just started a new practice over here of having pilots fill out a survey every time they call in fatigued. The problem is the Union had NO input into the survey (neither did the company safety department) and it asks all kinds of questions about how long is your commute, what did you do on your days off and the like. I think a survey is actually a pretty good idea, but there needs to be a bunch of protections in place.

The only good thing about all this is that they also redid the corporate policy manual (which pilots are told not to sign as it is not part of our contract) to state that a fatigue call is NOT a sick call and hence does not count as an ocurance. However, they are coding them in CrewTrack as sick calls (I'm assuming) so the FAA won't be able to track them that way.
 
BobDDuck said:
They just started a new practice over here of having pilots fill out a survey every time they call in fatigued. The problem is the Union had NO input into the survey (neither did the company safety department) and it asks all kinds of questions about how long is your commute, what did you do on your days off and the like. I think a survey is actually a pretty good idea, but there needs to be a bunch of protections in place.

The only good thing about all this is that they also redid the corporate policy manual (which pilots are told not to sign as it is not part of our contract) to state that a fatigue call is NOT a sick call and hence does not count as an ocurance. However, they are coding them in CrewTrack as sick calls (I'm assuming) so the FAA won't be able to track them that way.
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Like Nick said, fill out an ASAP or NASA. The Feds will see that and if the go back to management and the tapes are not there or it's marked as sick call in CrewTrack, the fines will help management follow the rules a little bit better. Even us in MX are in the ASAP program here at Comair. It gets used..well up until the court wanted ASAP reports from the company, now everyone is leery of using the program now.
 
Re: Fatiqued and Pilots

kellwolf said:
Clear cut. So is our sick policy. More than two sick calls in a year? Meeting with the base manager. They've started an attendance incentive program, but a lot of guys are calling it the "Fly sick" program. They don't want you to take time off and get healthy, they want you at work so they can run their lean staffing model. They increased the number of CA reserves in April b/c of the amount of sick calls. It seems to not have even occurred to them it's cold/flu season. The result is you have to got to seniority number 200-something in MEM to find someone with more than 13 days off in MEM as a CA next month. I haven't looked at DTW or MSP, but it's probably pretty bad there, too.

One of the things the irks me the most about management's policies here is how they intimidate you into coming to work when you're sick or fatigued. Nevermind what the FAA says, they need your butt in the seat. So, you're put in a situation where you could do what the FAA says but then have to defend your job for making the right decision.
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You have a problem with the company busting your balls about fatigue? Call the union. The union doesn't get results? Go to the chief pilot. The chief pilot doesn't get results? Go to your POI. The POI doesn't get results? Go to his supervisor. He doesn't get results? Go to the New York Times, and notify the POI, his sup, the company and the union that you're doing so. Document it and when they fire you, sue the pants off of everybody involved and maybe you'll get the work rules changed for all of us.

You will never have another problem with fatigue at that company again if somebody were to get to about step 3 of that chain.
 
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