FAR 117 Question

SpiceWeasel

SpiceWeasel

Tre Kronor
Table says max duty day 12 hours (in this example, 1300-1659 scheduled start, 4 legs). Getting prepped for last leg, appears if we don't accept an extension we will exceed duty limit.

If I refuse an extension, am I fatigued? Do I HAVE TO be fatigued to consider refusing an extension?
 
SpiceWeasel said:
Table says max duty day 12 hours (in this example, 1300-1659 scheduled start, 4 legs). Getting prepped for last leg, appears if we don't accept an extension we will exceed duty limit.

If I refuse an extension, am I fatigued? Do I HAVE TO be fatigued to consider refusing an extension?
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You have to refuse the extension if you feel you are unfit for duty. What happens after the extension depends on what your company requires. Some may require you fill out the fatigue report (ASAP form maybe), others might not do anything.
 
jtrain609 said:
Depends on the company.
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I guess I have my answer. It's a blast to discuss this with scheduling at midnight.

Does anyone not extend based on principle?

How should pay be handled for not extending? Basically, since it's a fatigue call, it comes out of PTO here, as far as I can tell.
 
SpiceWeasel said:
I guess I have my answer. It's a blast to discuss this with scheduling at midnight.

Does anyone not extend based on principle?

How should pay be handled for not extending? Basically, since it's a fatigue call, it comes out of PTO here, as far as I can tell.
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I wouldn't refuse an extension on principle. There are plenty of times where I might face being extended (hypothetically as it's super rare out here to hit duty time limits) and feel completely "fit" to take on the flying. Just like I have the ability to be fatigued within a normally scheduled duty period, I also have the ability to not be too tired to work outside a normally scheduled duty period. The nice thing about the system is the pilot now gets to decide.

And is it a fatigue call? I'd guess that would depend on what the contractual language (once you get it) says. Is "not fit to fly" the same as being fatigued? I personally don't think so as one is a current issue only and one could be a current or future issue.

As for the pay, that depends on your contract language again. Some places never pay for fatigue calls. Some places take it out of your sick (or PTO) bank. The very best places have a standing committee that looks at each occurrence and decides if it was caused by the pilot (in which case the pay comes out of their sick bank) or out of their control (in which case they are pay protected but not charged sick time).
 
I would strongly advise talking to a union representative to see how your company handles it.
 
SpiceWeasel said:
I guess I have my answer. It's a blast to discuss this with scheduling at midnight.

Does anyone not extend based on principle?

How should pay be handled for not extending? Basically, since it's a fatigue call, it comes out of PTO here, as far as I can tell.
Click to expand...

Call your union rep - they will give you the scoop on how the company is 'handling' this regulatory and safety issue. I would recommend following up on the pay issue based on their recommendation - including ASAP and/or calls to the appropriate regulatory agency if you feel that punitive financial pressure was put upon you to fly in a potential fatigued condition or if the fatigue management policy is being violated.
 
I'm sure interpretation and application varies from company to company... But at the current check distributer: Any extension over 30 minutes must be accepted, not to say that we are calling to confirm that acceptance, it is assumed the extension is accepted unless we hear otherwise. It is the pilots obligation to know their FDP limitations and legality, and to know when they are able to accept or reject said extension. (Very few understand the new 117 legality, or their own contractual limitations, from my experience.)

That said it is all pulled the same way, and you can be fatigued 1 hour into duty or on hour 15.5. I don't agree with the pulls over the 30 minute extension being fatigued, and I'm sure that bit is not uniform across the industry, I just do what the boss tells me and go home to my family.
 
mshunter said:
And they do.
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Sadly

I've denied two extensions, both of the two hour kind. Though technically one, as the first one my CA made that decision for me.

The second I was at a base, we had plenty of reserves available including standby, I had called sked to warn them of the possibility and they did nothing, and quite frankly I was just exhausted. It had been a 12 or 13 hour day already, bad weather, mx issues. I was just done and ready to go to the hotel.
 
We only do 30 min extensions. They will cancel before they do a 2 hour, or so I hear. Haven't dealt with it personally.
 
BobDDuck said:
I wouldn't refuse an extension on principle. There are plenty of times where I might face being extended (hypothetically as it's super rare out here to hit duty time limits) and feel completely "fit" to take on the flying. Just like I have the ability to be fatigued within a normally scheduled duty period, I also have the ability to not be too tired to work outside a normally scheduled duty period. The nice thing about the system is the pilot now gets to decide.

And is it a fatigue call? I'd guess that would depend on what the contractual language (once you get it) says. Is "not fit to fly" the same as being fatigued? I personally don't think so as one is a current issue only and one could be a current or future issue.

As for the pay, that depends on your contract language again. Some places never pay for fatigue calls. Some places take it out of your sick (or PTO) bank. The very best places have a standing committee that looks at each occurrence and decides if it was caused by the pilot (in which case the pay comes out of their sick bank) or out of their control (in which case they are pay protected but not charged sick time).
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The FAA has ducked the issue of what happens when the PIC refuses to concur with an extension, saying that it is a labor relations matter and "they don't do that." Because, they don't.

Proceed with caution. As always, the bottom line is if you are fatigued, don't fly, but you might have some 'splaining to do or you might, in fact, have to avail yourself of FRMP to be excused from duty. I'm pretty sure it's still considered fatigue here, but I honestly haven't been put in an extension situation—something bad typically happens before we get there that results in us cancelling/reflowing/rerouting around the need for an extension. We're much more likely to cancel an intervening round trip and reassign that to someone else to get around it.

FlyingPoke said:
I'm sure interpretation and application varies from company to company... But at the current check distributer: Any extension over 30 minutes must be accepted, not to say that we are calling to confirm that acceptance, it is assumed the extension is accepted unless we hear otherwise. It is the pilots obligation to know their FDP limitations and legality, and to know when they are able to accept or reject said extension. (Very few understand the new 117 legality, or their own contractual limitations, from my experience.)

That said it is all pulled the same way, and you can be fatigued 1 hour into duty or on hour 15.5. I don't agree with the pulls over the 30 minute extension being fatigued, and I'm sure that bit is not uniform across the industry, I just do what the boss tells me and go home to my family.
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Not exactly.

The "affirmative" concurrence of the Captain and the certificate holder is required for 31 minutes to 120 minutes worth of extension. It's not a "freebie." See the Wykoff and Mullen (2014) letter. What happens AFTER you refuse the extension is up to you and your employer.
 
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