Failed Checkride

[MikeD]

I don't think you should refrain from using an examiner just because he's tough. My private was a cake walk - 45 minute oral, 1.2 hour flight. Everyone wants to have the best pass rate possible, but if it makes your students better pilots - having to more precisely and know their material better - then I don't see what the problem is. Just next time make sure your student is 100.0%, instead of 97%.

In many ways I wish I'd had a harder private checkride, because if I'd gone out [like so many other people do] and immediately started doing a ton of solo/xc flying by myself the day after my checkride, I might have gotten myself in trouble before I learned any better. But if you go to the hardest examiner around, study appropriately, and then pass with flying colors, then you'll have better confidence, better knowledge, and better skills.

It sucks that the student busted, but personally I don't really buy into the policy of sending students to the easiest examiner you can find if it means that the students get away with inferior knowledge and skills.

There's a difference between a tough examiner, and one that wears down the student with a totally unnecessary 5 hour oral, to where the student is already behind the power curve for the flight simply due to fatigue.

On a checkride, you don't want to make it cake, but you do want to set the student up out the gate for success, not failure.

 

[N8081G]

I think a lot of examiners are being pressured to be tougher since that Colgan crash in Feb. Just my observation over the past couple months. Lots of people are busting checkrides left, right and center.

 

[PA44-LUV]

Oh my goodness. I wouldn't be able to find my heading either after an almost 5 hour oral with no rest direct into a flight! That seems way overboard for PPL.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

I think a lot of examiners are being pressured to be tougher since that Colgan crash in Feb. Just my observation over the past couple months. Lots of people are busting checkrides left, right and center.

I could understand that for an ATP ride or even a commercial ride, but a private ride, no way. Not everyone out there who gets a private certificate is looking to move on to a career in aviation. For a private ride, somebody shouldn't be able to recite a the federal regulations from memory. At best, they should know in general what they contain, and where to look them up.

 

[esa17]

Run, don't walk, away from this examiner. It sounds to me like he's one of those who loves to prove how smart he is to the applicant.

Don't bother calling the FSDO, they won't care. Instead make sure all the CFI's in your area know about this guy and why he should be avoided. In this case, attrition is the only weapon you have.

 

[N8081G]

I could understand that for an ATP ride or even a commercial ride, but a private ride, no way. Not everyone out there who gets a private certificate is looking to move on to a career in aviation. For a private ride, somebody shouldn't be able to recite a the federal regulations from memory. At best, they should know in general what they contain, and where to look them up.

I agree but i have noticed that a lot of applicants are busting checkrides atleast once. I am not sure if these examiners are being pressured to be a lot tougher since we need to produce pilots with more quality or if some are just plain a-holes, or both. Heck when i first had my PPL i felt a sense of accomplishment but realistically speaking i knew that i really have a licenses to learn. A 5hr oral for a PPL is insane. That is how long the oral was for my CFI ride........

 

[Jshutt64]

My private oral was around 2 and my flight was 1.5.

I actually busted the first time, DPE said my chosen course to PDZ VOR (which I had always flown with my instructor) was too close to LAX Bravo for her liking and she had to intervene. Sucked, but I learned from my mistake. Thankfully she let me finish the rest of the ride.

A 5 hour oral is literally insane for the private. Just don't use the DPE again.

 

[ProudPilot]

Ok, everyone is talking about the length. Yelling or harassing a student is NEVER ok. You're the examiner, and they are the pilot in command. End of story. So long as they aren't about to crash the airplane, then it's their airplane. If it takes 10 minutes to get a good steep turn, it takes 10 minutes.

So, I would call the FSDO. There are bad examiners out there and the FAA is willing to hire someone else to do the job, Lord knows there's a lot of CFI's out there willing to become a DPE for a living.

 

[escapepilot]

I'd avoid this examiner. Sometimes its better to travel. There is an examiner close to here that has a reputation for tough orals during the summer because he doesn't want get into a hot aircraft. At least that's the reputation I've heard from other CFIs. I send my guys a lot farther to a DPE I feel does a fair and quality exam.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

I agree but i have noticed that a lot of applicants are busting checkrides atleast once.

People are human. Everyone has an off day once in a while. The odds have to catch up to you sooner or later. Probably better to fail sooner, to learn to deal with the failure.

 

[Bernoulli Fan]

Hes a new examiner who just got qualified to do this a few months ago and I only know of one other student who went with this guy who said he would never go with him again. He passed though.

He the closest examiner in Wyoming. Id would have to send all my students to MT if I choose to use a different examiner.

Are you in Sheridan? I did my PVT there a few years ago, and there was only one examiner for miles around. As I recall, though, my oral was only a couple hours the night before the flight, which wasn't more than 1.5. He passed me despite my best efforts.

 

[germb747]

Ok, everyone is talking about the length. Yelling or harassing a student is NEVER ok. You're the examiner, and they are the pilot in command. End of story. So long as they aren't about to crash the airplane, then it's their airplane. If it takes 10 minutes to get a good steep turn, it takes 10 minutes.

So, I would call the FSDO. There are bad examiners out there and the FAA is willing to hire someone else to do the job, Lord knows there's a lot of CFI's out there willing to become a DPE for a living.

I agree that yelling is not acceptable, but there's no need for the examiner to give you 10 minutes to produce a good steep turn just because the applicant is PIC. You get one shot at it, and if it's outside the PTS, he can bust you right there. When he was giving military checkrides, chances are that he was the PIC since that's the way it usually works in the AF, so maybe he's not used to it being the other way around and still has the mentality that he's in charge. Not an excuse, but perhaps that explains what his mindset might be.

There's a difference between a tough examiner, and one that wears down the student with a totally unnecessary 5 hour oral, to where the student is already behind the power curve for the flight simply due to fatigue.

On a checkride, you don't want to make it cake, but you do want to set the student up out the gate for success, not failure.

:yeahthat:

If an examiner happens to be Santa Claus, they won't be a DPE for very long, because they do have a unwritten quota of busts that if they don't give, their qualification as an examiner will be called into question by the feds. And if you get too many student busts as a CFI, then your qualifications will also be called into question. Chances are that if someone has been an examiner for awhile, they know what they're looking for and are giving the test properly, even if they do have a reputation for being a little "softer". My goal as a CFI would be to have the applicant overprepared, and I wouldn't sign them off unless I was convinced that they could not only pass the checkride, but could operate safely as a private pilot. As for the checkride itself, I'd give my student every chance possible to pass, because I wouldn't be sending them if I didn't think they were ready. After all, a checkride is simply a validation of the training I gave the student.

I don't think you should refrain from using an examiner just because he's tough. My private was a cake walk - 45 minute oral, 1.2 hour flight. Everyone wants to have the best pass rate possible, but if it makes your students better pilots - having to fly more precisely and know their material better - then I don't see what the problem is. Just next time make sure your student is 100.0%, instead of 97%.

In many ways I wish I'd had a harder private checkride, because if I'd gone out [like so many other people do] and immediately started doing a ton of solo/xc flying by myself the day after my checkride, I might have gotten myself in trouble before I learned any better. But, if a student goes to the hardest examiner around, studies appropriately, and then passes with flying colors, then they'll have better confidence, better knowledge, and better skills.

It sucks that the student busted, but personally I don't really buy into the policy of sending students to the easiest examiner you can find if it means that the students get away with inferior knowledge and skills.

The problem with this is that the practical test is supposed to be standardized from one evaluator to the next. We all know each examiner has their particulars, but if one guy is giving the test in a manner that's way outside the norm, I have a problem with that. This is a private pilot test, not a Part 121 captain's type ride.

 

[Maurus]

I had an ex-FBI guy do my commercial ride. He was a fair examiner but you wanted to shoot yourself for treason by the time you were done. Needless to say, when the school wanted me to do my CFI add-on ride with him I said no.

 

[Douglas]

If that was a reality in my local area, I would easily make the call not to use him again.
Yelling at a student on a checkride? That is too bad.


I think you need to weigh your options with MT and calling the FSDO, as mentioned.

 

[N8081G]

People are human. Everyone has an off day once in a while. The odds have to catch up to you sooner or later. Probably better to fail sooner, to learn to deal with the failure.

The real point that i was trying to make was if they actually deserved a pink slip or the examiner purposely went out of their way to fail the applicant so that his superiors won't see him as being too laid back and start an investigation. Don't get me wrong, some applicants do deserve that pink slip, then again, politics comes into play and it makes you go hmmmmmm

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

The real point that i was trying to make was if they actually deserved a pink slip or the examiner purposely went out of their way to fail the applicant so that his superiors won't see him as being too laid back and start an investigation. Don't get me wrong, some applicants do deserve that pink slip, then again, politics comes into play and it makes you go hmmmmmm

Agreed. There are DPE's out there looking to boost their pay. Somehow, the whole DPE system needs fixed, but I'm not sure there is a way to fix it.

 

[pilotbry]

I could write a novel about my Commercial ride but just for starters, after scoffing at my 99% score on the written, this guy absolutely railed on me for the first 20 minutes because my AME had used a yellow slip for my 2nd class medical cert. He huffed and puffed and shook his head then finally called his POI who told him while irregular, it was perfectly legal. It went downhill from there. He yelled and shook his head in that "you're an idiot" kind of way for most of the oral. I got zero positive feedback from this guy the entire time. Even though almost all of my answers were technically correct, he would find some way to nitpick on phrasing etc. After I discovered to my horror that the flight school had, at the last minute, handed me the wrong logbook for the airplane, he pulled out his booklet of pinkslips and put them on his desk as if he were pointing a gun at me before declaring himself to be a "nice guy" who would call it a continuance instead of a bust. This guy was also a very new DPE - retired check airman for an airline. By the time we got in the plane it was all i could do to remember my name. I ended up busting on a botched accuracy landing that I had performed perfectly a half dozen times before with my CFI.

I didn't expect a cake ride and have no problem with a DPE being "by the book" but this narcissistic drill sergeant BS with yelling and personal insults serves no practical purpose in a checkride.

The problem with telling anyone about this kind of experience is that it's always your word against the DPE. The POI or anyone else could figure that maybe you are an idiot and deserved the treatment you got. I almost quit trying to pursue a career as a pilot because of this guy. If it wasn't for my current & previous CFIs reassuring me that I indeed was a competent pilot, I might have.

Hopefully the student in the original post can get that kind of support and move on to enjoy flying.

 

[HeyEng]

+1 on letting the FSDO know what's up. That is crazy...

Was the flight time ACTUAL or what your student told you? Just be careful before calling the feds.

My PPL oral was about 1.5 and the flight was 1.3. Everything that needed to be covered was covered. I was 100% confident at taking my family up in an airplane after the check.

If I had a 5 hour oral, I would requested a continuance for the practical portion.

 

[mxflyer]

I asked the examiner why the long Oral, and he replied that the national average for a private pilot Oral is 4.5 hours. Is this correct? I never had one so long for my private students before. How long has your checkrides been going for your students?

Maybe that's his average. That's long enough to put any first time applicant on edge, even without the yelling. The longest PVT oral exam my students have had was around 2.5 hours, no yelling involved in the plane either. I'd definately get the facts straight, do some research and find out if it was an isolated incident or not.

After an oral that long with no breaks before the flight you'd have to start considering the IMSAFE checklist.
For that reason, I also brief my students about the discontinuance option. I started doing that after one time a student pulled me aside after the oral to tell me he was feeling ill and wasn't sure how he'd preform in the plane. I never discussed checkride outcomes with him. Since then I started briefing students on that.

 

[mxflyer]

Examiner said the student did above average on everything except he just froze up on the diversion.

The PTS says, "Typical areas of unsatisfactory preformance and grounds for disqualification are...#3. Consistently exceeding tolerances in the Objectives."

Not sure how that would apply but it seems harsh to bust a applicant who was CONSISTENTLY above average on everything else over one mistake. But then again, there could have been a lot more to it...