Failed CFI-I Initial

I believe that if you take a ride w/ an FAA examiner, then it is free. It is the DE's that cost you a pretty penny, $300 in our neck of the woods! The problem is that if you want a "free" ride, you have to wait a few weeks, to a few months to get it!
 
Here's how to solve a debate on Cessna flaps. Look in the POH. I believe it says "slotted" under the flap type.
 
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The better question is, who gives a crap?

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i don't mean to be an ass, but the FSDO gives a crap, your students will give a crap, and the person who employs you as a CFI should damn well give a crap. if you don't know your engine is fuel injected i'd see it as a big problem.

i'd expect them to not only ask you if its fuel injected (I= fuel injected), but to also diagram the engine, fuel system, know how the fuel injection works, etc, etc, etc...its just stuff you should expect on a checkride, and his CFI should have preped him for it. no excuses.

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Same with flaps. Do you know how to operate them safely and effectively? Do you know how to preflight them, what kind of malfunctions can happen and what to do? Good enough.

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flaps...again, i don't mean to be an ass but thats basic basic stuff he NEEDS to know. if you are going to be teaching people these things, then you damn well better know them yourself and know them well. from what they are, what they do, how they work, what there made of, and so on.



in any event, Propilot, don't let it get you down. i'm not trying to rag on you for what happened on your checkride. i'm trying to rag on the people who are trying to give you excuses for it. no one should try and help you to justify it by blaming someone else. that kind of thing isn't going to help you succeed, it'll just make you bitter and reluctant to knuckle down and take care of business. just take it on the chin, study hard, and next time show the examiner you worked hard to correct your mistakes...no more, no less.
 
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but to also diagram the engine, fuel system, know how the fuel injection works

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I disagree, for an A&P absolutely. Diagrams of the engine and knowing the mechanical systems and how the fuel injection works is for an A&P. I'm not advocating that we short change teaching pilots ... I acknowledge that I lack in having a better understanding of the mechanical aspect of the planes I fly, and I'm working on learning more.

However, a private pilot should know how to make sure the fuel gets to their engine from the cockpit. If there's a problem with the system, how to troubleshoot it from the cockpit. One can't open the hood and work on the system while airborne ... on the ground, well that's what mechanics are paid for.


Same with your flaps argument ... one should know how to operate them from inside the cockpit, and troubleshoot if they're not operating properly. If knowing the technical term helps, good deal, if not ... a GA pilot who wants to beat around the bush should not have to go through an ATP systems-esque checkride.
 
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The better question is, who gives a crap?

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i don't mean to be an ass, but the FSDO gives a crap, your students will give a crap, and the person who employs you as a CFI should damn well give a crap. if you don't know your engine is fuel injected i'd see it as a big problem.

i'd expect them to not only ask you if its fuel injected (I= fuel injected), but to also diagram the engine, fuel system, know how the fuel injection works, etc, etc, etc...its just stuff you should expect on a checkride, and his CFI should have preped him for it. no excuses.

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I respectfully disagree. Again, is this an A&P checkride or a CFI-I checkride? Here's one for you......Why don't we toss in some ICAO procedure knowlege, since you could conceivably fly international? Because that would be as absurd as what this FSDO jackass was doing.

Do I expect the guy to know this stuff? Sure. Is it something I'd bust him for? Hell no. That's because I'm big picture, unlike many of these DPEs and FSDO clowns who think they're god's gift to aviation. And they try to create CFIs to be the same thing. Big mistake, and wrong focus, IMO.

Again, a pilot needs to understand the principles, not the in-depth mechanics of systems. He needs to know how to use them, NOT repair them.

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Same with flaps. Do you know how to operate them safely and effectively? Do you know how to preflight them, what kind of malfunctions can happen and what to do? Good enough.

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flaps...again, i don't mean to be an ass but thats basic basic stuff he NEEDS to know. if you are going to be teaching people these things, then you damn well better know them yourself and know them well. from what they are, what they do, how they work, what there made of, and so on.

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Again. I'm don't expect any pilot to know how to build the darn airplane. If he happens to know it, good on him and good extra credit, but IMHO that's outside the scope of his required knowlege needed to safely operate the aircraft.

Using your logic, why don't we quiz A&Ps on Part 91 of the FARs and other operational related matters to flying. Why? Because it's beyond the scope of what they need to know to do their jobs safely and effectively. An A&P doesn't need to know IFR divert rules for his job. IMHO, the relation here is the same to what the DPE was requiring.

Again, if a guy happens to know the stuff this in-depth, good for him. But it's not something I'd bust a guy for, more something I'd cover in the debrief if he didn't know the answer.

Don't get me wrong, I see where you're coming from.....that is, to know as much as you can about your aircraft. And to that extent I agree. But some of the very in-depth stuff will come in time. For the checkride itself, there's specific stuff I'm looking for in the ability of the pilot to safely and effectively accomplish the ride he's checking for. I'd always encourage further study to gain as much understanding as one can; but there's a definate line of what I'd bust someone for versus what I'd simply debrief them on (if they didn't know it), or give them extra credit for (if they did know it).
 
I agree with Mike you should know the info but to bust someone for not knowing it, give me a break. This examiner sounds like the type that will keep going deeper and deeper until you miss something. Don't worry if you would have answered it right he probably would have asked you if the stupid thing has cast or forged pistons, then if you would have got that right you could have gotten into the casting process.
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. . .i don't mean to be an ass but thats basic basic stuff he NEEDS to know. if you are going to be teaching people these things, then you damn well better know them yourself and know them well.

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Just a question. . . should we know these things just so that we're able to teah them? Realistically, why would I EVER need to know that the I in IO stands for fuel injected? When would I ever use that piece of trivia as a pilot?

Yeah, it's cool that a CFI can rattle off the technobabble, but how much good does the technobabble really do?

Just curious....
 
I guess everyone has different opinions when it comes to "nice to know" vs. "need to know."

Do I think anyone should fail a checkride because they don't know what the "I" stands for in "IO?" Of course not. That's rediculous.

Do I believe that is the sole reason this person failed their checkride? No. I agree with MikeD. Some inspectors are just out to screw people.

Sounds to me like it was headed in that direction anyways, before the "IO" question ever came up.

Anyways...Propilot- keep your head up and have another go at it. LOTS of people bust their initial CFI's, especially when taken with FSDO's. It happens. Good luck on the recheck!
 
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i agree with everything you said ESF. i was just taking things from the point of my checkrides in the past. i always planned on getting asked some real obscure things so i tried to study for them with that expectation. it was just part of my training down in florida. they always made sure we knew everything from the most basic of things right down to what the I in IO means. i mean who the hell cares what size and ply tire the plane has, but i always had to know it. so, i apologize if i sounded like i was rippin' propilot...i just feel that those things are the stupid crazy stuff you need to know to pass checkrides, and pass on to students so they pass checkrides.
 
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i agree with everything you said ESF. i was just taking things from the point of my checkrides in the past. i always planned on getting asked some real obscure things so i tried to study for them with that expectation. it was just part of my training down in florida. they always made sure we knew everything from the most basic of things right down to what the I in IO means. i mean who the hell cares what size and ply tire the plane has, but i always had to know it. so, i apologize if i sounded like i was rippin' propilot...i just feel that those things are the stupid crazy stuff you need to know to pass checkrides, and pass on to students so they pass checkrides.

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Nah, man, your comments were no problem. I agree it doesn't hurt to know minutia for the times when you might run into DPEs or Examiners like the one here. My gripe is with the examiners that bust someone over stuff like this, rather than simply debrief them. Same as the "need to know" vs "nice to know" that ESF mentions.
 
Yikes, sorry I didnt reply to this sooner, I was away from home and didnt have internet access.



First, let me just say that I also blatently missed a question on cloud clearance requirements on class B, and that was the final question that he failed me on.

That airspace question came right after the systems section that I didnt do so hot on.

So, convievably, i could have got the airspace question right and finished and passed the checkride (if he didnt have it in for me because of the systems)...

Anyways, I know how the fuel system works, I was asked to explain the electrical system, fuel system, all in extreme detail to include stats such as volts/amps and also a complete step by step explanation of what happens when you start, run, switch mags off, turn master off, mags fail, etc. I was also asked to explain the fuel system, how the engine makes power to include the basics such as intake, compression etc, and also how that power is transfered to the propeller.

IMHO, this was [censored]. It is not in the CFI-I pts, and I didnt not study for it.

However, I did get all that correct. Then he asked about flaps. What they arre for, how they work, what happens when they are deployed (aerodynamically speaking).
Again, these are CFI questions, not necesarily CFI-I questions. Still, I got all these right.

But, alas, I told him the 172SP had fowler flaps (I rememberd seeing them moving back and down) and he said he was tempted to fail me there, but then said "but I guess we will move on"

The very next question was about cloud clearances in class B, which, there is no excuse for me not knowing...I should have gotten that one. I missed it, and he ended it right there.

What sucks, is that I flew down to texas to do this ride, and I am back in Ohio now.

He would not let me continue on, wouldnt let me do the flight, or do the rest of the oral. And, since we didnt finish section II (the last part of section II is airspace) he only sighned me off on section I.

All in all, I spent thousands in dalls during Janurary, then another 1700 this past week to fly down and ramp up to take it....wouldnt be so bad except by the time I could get back down there, the 60days for retest will have passed.


Anyways, I got a job flying a 206 for jumpers, so im not going to worry about it.

As far as retrying, someday....but not any time soon...maybe this fall after the skydiving job slows down.


later peeps
 
Just curious, did you take this at a FSDO in Texas or with a DPE somewhere? If it was a FSDO, which one if you don't mind my asking.
 
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Just curious, did you take this at a FSDO in Texas or with a DPE somewhere? If it was a FSDO, which one if you don't mind my asking.

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I was thinking the same thing. . .
 
And another thing, is knowing VFR weather minimums in the CFII PTS? Granted, it's good to know, but is it there? I had to shoot an ILS for my CF-Single I. I guess they can ask you to do anything they want.

How did you dress for the checkride? Wear a suit and tie next time if you didn't the first time.
 
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And another thing, is knowing VFR weather minimums in the CFII PTS? Granted, it's good to know, but is it there? I had to shoot an ILS for my CF-Single I. I guess they can ask you to do anything they want.

How did you dress for the checkride? Wear a suit and tie next time if you didn't the first time.

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Correct me if I'm wrong... but I think he was going for both his CFI/CFII on the same ride... so, he'd have to get asked VFR stuff too...

But anyway, keep the faith brother, and knock out the re-take.

BTW, why did you go to TX from OH to take the ride? Why don't you do the re-take in OH? Just wondering.

-Erik
 
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And another thing, is knowing VFR weather minimums in the CFII PTS? Granted, it's good to know, but is it there? I had to shoot an ILS for my CF-Single I. I guess they can ask you to do anything they want.

How did you dress for the checkride? Wear a suit and tie next time if you didn't the first time.

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Correct me if I'm wrong... but I think he was going for both his CFI/CFII on the same ride... so, he'd have to get asked VFR stuff too...

But anyway, keep the faith brother, and knock out the re-take.

BTW, why did you go to TX from OH to take the ride? Why don't you do the re-take in OH? Just wondering.

-Erik

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Yeah, the way I read it is that he was doing his CFII as his initial.
 
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Yeah, the way I read it is that he was doing his CFII as his initial.

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thats what i thought also. even so, i was always told that on any given checkride and examiner has the option of asking you questions for any ratings or certificates you already hold.

and Pro, you've got to explain the whole Ohio to Texas thing for us.
 
Okay, for some reason this doesnt seem to be common knowlege.

You dont have to get your CFI before your CFI-I or MEI. Whatever you get first is your inital.

I do not hold any instructor ratings. I was going for an inital instructor rating. A CFI-Instrument.

I went to Texas in Dec/Jan during winter break because they had good prices, good reviews, and good weather, while Ohio was all snowy/icing, etc. Back at the end of Jan, I had almost finished my CFI-I training but not quite. So i went back down on Spring break to finish up.



The checkride, since it was an initial, was with the FSDO. the DFW FSDO.

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Okay, for some reason this doesnt seem to be common knowlege.

You dont have to get your CFI before your CFI-I or MEI. Whatever you get first is your inital.

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That's what I did!
 
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