Failed CFI-I Initial

Propilot

Propilot

Well-Known Member
Failed my CFI-I initial. got two hours into the oral.

FOI was first, I didnt exactly "nail" that, but he said it was ok. then went to aeromedical, nailed that. then some other stuff, then systems. asked me about flaps. Im like damn, I haveent studied that stuff since commercial...got 3 of them and he had to tell me the last one, then he asked which type of flap is on the 172, I missed that..

that was the turning point, he came right out and "said well I dont care what CFI you are going for, any CFI ought to know flaps better, but i guess we will continue."
So of course, he went deeper into systems, eventually asked me what type of engine was on it, I said, Horizontally Opposed, direct drive, fuel injected, 4 cylinder, lycoming IO-360.

I figured i nailed that, but i guess he really didnt like that I didnt know what kind of flaps i had because then he starts asking questions like "what does the "I" stand for in IO-360".

Me: "uhh uhh well uhh."

Examiner: "Ok, we are done"

Me: *muffled* "damn"

Not too suprised since this particular FSDO has a really high failure rate...but then again this examiner is supposed to be easier. uhh, i dunno. He said I could retest in a week or two, but I have to fly back to ohio for school, and in 4 weeks i move to cape cod.

Just wanted to vent

banghead.gif
 
Bummer dude, but keep your chin up. The CFI initial is by far the toughest checkride I've ever taken, including my 121 PC for the RJ. Taking this thing at a FSDO is no small task. A lot of times they will try to rattle you and fail you just to see if you'll come back. Charge back in and try again!

PS: The I stands for (fuel) Injected and the O stands for "Opposed" as in Horizontally opposed. 360 is the displacement in cubic inches.

As far a what type of flaps a 172 has, this has been debated over and over again but must people agree that it is either a fowler or a slotted flap, more accurately a hybrid between the two.
 
That is weird he failed you on that because you did answer what IO was in your answer to him. I suppose he was going beyond the rote to see if you actually knew what the IO were there for.

I means fuel injected and O is opposing cylinders
 
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What does the I stand for?

[/ QUOTE ]

The better question is, who gives a crap?

I SO hate these freaking idiot DEs and fed examiners that bust people over crap that has NOTHING to do with anything. They're SO into queep that I'd consider extra-credit, that they fail to see the big picture of what's really important. THESE are the guys I'd like to give a kick in the ass to, for they're either one of two ways:

1. Trying to always show how much more they know than the upgradees.

2. Have outlandish expectations, or outright have no freaking understanding of what's truly important in aviation, and what's good to know.

Should you know what IO on the engine means? Sure. Is it something I'd bust you for? No. I expect you to know the care and feeding of the IO-360, NOT how to build the gawd-damned thing. If you do know how to build the gawd-damned thing, good on you; but I surely don't require it. It's like in the AF. In A-10s, I'd get asked what the internal logarithms are that the Maverick air-to-ground missile uses to "think" with. I happen to know them because I had happened to read them, but it's not something I'd expect a guy to know. I don't build the damn things, I employ them. If it breaks inflight or the logarithms malfunction, there ain't a damn thing I can do to repair it from the cockpit, it either works or it don't.

Same with flaps. Do you know how to operate them safely and effectively? Do you know how to preflight them, what kind of malfunctions can happen and what to do? Good enough.

Remind me again, was this a CFI checkride or an A&P checkride?

Stupid-ass examiners.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What does the I stand for?

[/ QUOTE ]

The better question is, who gives a crap?

I SO hate these freaking idiot DEs and fed examiners that bust people over crap that has NOTHING to do with anything. They're SO into queep that I'd consider extra-credit, that they fail to see the big picture of what's really important. THESE are the guys I'd like to give a kick in the ass to, for they're either one of two ways:

1. Trying to always show how much more they know than the upgradees.

2. Have outlandish expectations, or outright have no freaking understanding of what's truly important in aviation, and what's good to know.

Should you know what IO on the engine means? Sure. Is it something I'd bust you for? No. I expect you to know the care and feeding of the IO-360, NOT how to build the gawd-damned thing. If you do know how to build the gawd-damned thing, good on you; but I surely don't require it. It's like in the AF. In A-10s, I'd get asked what the internal logarithms are that the Maverick air-to-ground missile uses to "think" with. I happen to know them because I had happened to read them, but it's not something I'd expect a guy to know. I don't build the damn things, I employ them. If it breaks inflight or the logarithms malfunction, there ain't a damn thing I can do to repair it from the cockpit, it either works or it don't.

Same with flaps. Do you know how to operate them safely and effectively? Do you know how to preflight them, what kind of malfunctions can happen and what to do? Good enough.

Remind me again, was this a CFI checkride or an A&P checkride?

Stupid-ass examiners.

[/ QUOTE ]

The examiner probably knew it was over after the questions about flaps and decided to screw with him by asking the 'I' question. Sucks that he failed the test, but at least the examiner gave him a funny story to tell because I never heard of that question being asked to a pilot.
 
Bummer dude
My Initial was pretty easy. Prepared the lesson on Chandelles taught that, than was sat down and told to listen. He went on for two hours of what makes a good teacher and how to cover your a$$ (CYA). The flight was pretty easy he told me that he wasn't to see if I could fly but could, teach and communicate the task being taught, act as PIC, maintain situational awareness, and have proper scanning tech and clearing the airspace.
 
I completely agree with MikeD, knowing the IO is complete trivia and knowing what kind of flaps are on a 172 (even then, there's no cut-dry answer) doesn't help you fly the airplane. You got shafted, but that's the FAA for you. Maybe you can try a different FSDO next time.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Sucks that he failed the test, but at least the examiner gave him a funny story to tell because I never heard of that question being asked to a pilot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was asked what both "I" and "O" stood for on my private ride. Now granted, these were more of 'extra credit' questions the DE asked me...just threw them out there...luckily I knew.

Let us know how your retest goes!

Sarah
 
Oh that sucks. Better luck next time.

I'm in the process of preparing for my CFI initial too, and it's a lot harder than I thought it was going to be. You may know the stuff really well, but teaching it is a different ball game.

Hang in there! When you're giving flight instruction to your first lot of students, this experience will be a distant memory.
 
I've been told be SEVERAL instructors, chief pilots, FSDOs, etc that if you fail your CFI initial, don't get discouraged. For some places it seems to be a right of passage. I was once told that the pass/fail of one geographic location followed the common sense of flipping a coin, head you pass, tails you don't. Also sounds to me that he was gonna fail you on the flaps no matter what, and he was asking the "what does the I stand for?" to push buttons. Good luck on the re-take.
 
I pinked my initial too. Don't worry about it. I hope you kept going and finished the rest of the ride, or he let you.

I completely agree with Mike and Alchemy, knowing that stuff has no bearing on either your ability to teach or safety. I am sorry that happened to you and I think there are way too many examiners that teach through intimidation and it is wrong.

I had a student pink recently and asked the DPE what I need to cover with him and where the student's training was lacking. He said, "Oh no, he's fine, he just missed some radio calls and then that affected his concentration." I thought, HUH? Well doesn't that happen to 99% of the GA pilots out there everyday anyway? Isn't this guy a career guy who is going to on to several more ratings? Won't he learn this stuff soon and was it really a safety or knowledge problem?

Don't let it bring you down. That sucks but you will do better after that experience, trust me.
 
[ QUOTE ]

I had a student pink recently and asked the DPE what I need to cover with him and where the student's training was lacking. He said, "Oh no, he's fine, he just missed some radio calls and then that affected his concentration." I thought, HUH? Well doesn't that happen to 99% of the GA pilots out there everyday anyway? Isn't this guy a career guy who is going to on to several more ratings? Won't he learn this stuff soon and was it really a safety or knowledge problem?



[/ QUOTE ]

Fully agree. And this DPE you describe is exactly the kind of nitwit I'm talking about. I mean, your guy is on a checkride, already a little stressful no matter how many checkrides you've taken in your life. And all he did was miss a few radio calls? Like ou say, Ophir, who hasn't that happened to at least once every few flights? I mean, if we're gonna bust people for that kind of 3rd-tier bullshat, then nobody would be flying.

Another DPE I'd love to give a wall-to-wall ass kicking to...........
mad.gif
 
To me, DPEs are part of the service industry. I don't expect them to be Santa Claus, but I do expect them to adhere to the PTS. Busting a student (esp a PPL student) because their radio work is shaky or they get temporarily distracted is NOT following the PTS. If the student gets distracted or fumbles with the radio to the point that it compromises the safety of the flight, that IS in line with the PTS to bust them. Where the "service industry" part comes in, if a DE is unfairly busting students, then they should either change their practices or I stop using them. No sense in the DE getting paid for doing their job poorly.
 
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I SO hate these freaking idiot DEs and fed examiners that bust people over crap that has NOTHING to do with anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Good execution of the procedure, good decision making, but you didn't call 'Checklist Complete" so I've got to unsat you..."
 
This guy was on his instrument ride, so radios have to be large part of it. But the description afterwards of how he was just having a bad day really got me. I mean really, it was a bad day right?
 
[ QUOTE ]

As far a what type of flaps a 172 has, this has been debated over and over again but must people agree that it is either a fowler or a slotted flap, more accurately a hybrid between the two.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, Bumer on busting the ride dude. Polish up on the systems and get back on the horse. The FAA seems to pride itself on pink slipping 90% of 1st time CFI applicants. I guess it's their way of "proving" they are improving air safety. You can at least be glad you are not in our local FSDO. The woman doing most of the checkrides here is one of the most difficult humans I've ever had to communicate with. She is on a completely different planet apparently.

Second, why is there a debate about 172 flaps? Slotted flaps allow some of the air from UNDER the wing to pass through a slot and join the air flowing OVER the top of the wing. Fowler, plain or split flaps do not. Therefore, the design of the flap on the 152/172/182/ etc is a slotted design.

I agree the Cessna design shares the trait of moving aft and down, as with a fowler flap, but the there should be no debate based on the defintion of a slotted flap.

Tiger815
 
I was taught that the flaps on a Cessna are called "Cessna Flaps" because they are unique and proprietary to that plane. Sounds like a bogus question to me, maybe the guy had a tee time or something and wanted to split.
ARN
 
Does it cost around the same to take a checkride with a FSDO employee as your average DE ... a couple hundred bucks?

If so, it's an expensive "rite of passage" to fail a student just to see if they'll come back.
 
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