FAA Set To Issue Mentoring Rules For Airline Pilots

This mentorship should start early in their aviation training career. I never understood why US airlines never adopted what UK and Asia airlines are doing with cadet programs. Basically mentorship programs, build them up early.

Here, all the good (aka experienced) CFIs I know at my local school are gone to regionals, while incoming students are being paired with fresh CFIs with less than 300 hours and are ready on paper but when it comes to real world, it's a different story - and now these students are going to carry these learned "habits" with them.
 
ahsmatt7 said:
what's the point of this? how will this help anything in this industry.

it's just another way for people to have an ego trip.

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I dunno man. I'm on board with this.

I'm really grateful for the mentoring and coaching I've received from line captains - just as grateful if not more than what I got from my initial LCAs. I'm also very grateful for the likes of @Derg and others who have provided helpful "steering" along the way. There's a lot of stuff that doesn't get crammed into the CTP-indoc-aircraft ground-sim-IOE footprint, particularly for an "outsider" coming into the airline business, and that knowledge needs to come from somewhere in order to make a high-quality operation.

I spend most of my time in pilot interface as an association rep explaining stuff that does NOT fall into that footprint—stuff that is to me clear and obvious, but not to someone for whom this is their first airline job. (Who do I call for (__)? How does reserve work? Where can I go for (___)? Have you seen this before, and how do you think I could handle it better?) There's a phenomenal amount of information crammed into that footprint—and then you're turned loose to do it, and hopefully to keep learning.

Some sort of continuing education process would be really awesome. New hire pilot mentoring and new captain "curing" programs — beyond the mandated CRM sessions and various and sundry CQ events — would (or do) go a long way.
 
Richman said:
The 1,500 rule was never a deterrent for the decades it was the de facto minimum.

1,200 hours never deterred anyone flying part 135 (IFR) in the decades it's been in place.

The rule is being used as an excuse for far more serious industrial problems that were already extant before Colgan.

Richman
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All of the increases in pay and QOL that we have seen in the last few years are the result of the 1500 hour rule.

1500 hours...hell, even more to that used to be the norm to start at an airline. Though. Hardly an insurmountable task, I think people are seeing the effort required and the stagnation that we were all suffering through and deciding it's not worth it.
 
I've always kept a "contact group" of mentors.

When I have a dilemma, I zap out a text and ask the 'how would you handle this' question.

Often times, the answer is "how much do you like doing paperwork?"

One thing I've also learned is that the 'loudest, most (seemingly) compelling voice in the room' is generally full of crap so you really have to watch who you ally yourselves with.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
All of the increases in pay and QOL that we have seen in the last few years are the result of the 1500 hour rule.

1500 hours...hell, even more to that used to be the norm to start at an airline. Though. Hardly an insurmountable task, I think people are seeing the effort required and the stagnation that we were all suffering through and deciding it's not worth it.
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The smart ones are....

The ones you DONT want flying, not so much.
 
CFI A&P said:
Mentoring with established guidelines and goals..................


Isn't that just called training ?
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I guess I'm still in training! :)

I don't always have all the answers, but I tend to dig around my box of "trusteds" until I come up with something actionable. Funny thing is the more I learn the more I realize how much I really don't know and how much of it is turns out to be 'educated guesses'.
 
Derg said:
I guess I'm still in training! :)

I don't always have all the answers, but I tend to dig around my box of "trusteds" until I come up with something actionable. Funny thing is the more I learn the more I realize how much I really don't know and how much of it is turns out to be 'educated guesses'.
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Oh, I'm always in training and it is a good thing. Aviation is such a diverse industry you can't know it all. Mentoring is a great thing, I seek knowledge from a circle of friends that I consider mentors, as they each have experience in their fields. It works both ways too, I have been asked for knowledge that I have gained from my experiences.

Maybe to me, mentoring seems as if can't be planned and happens spontaneously not forced. It doesn't feel as genuine if the FAA or company requires it. If IOE is 25 hours/ X trips or whatever number you put on it, then on probation for a year. Then mandatory mentoring occurs during probation. Why not just call it training ?
 
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Derg said:
I guess I'm still in training! :)

I don't always have all the answers, but I tend to dig around my box of "trusteds" until I come up with something actionable. Funny thing is the more I learn the more I realize how much I really don't know and how much of it is turns out to be 'educated guesses'.
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I keep a cadre of guys like that on speed dial.

Almost all of them are members here.
 
Derg said:
I've always kept a "contact group" of mentors.

When I have a dilemma, I zap out a text and ask the 'how would you handle this' question.

Often times, the answer is "how much do you like doing paperwork?"

One thing I've also learned is that the 'loudest, most (seemingly) compelling voice in the room' is generally full of crap so you really have to watch who you ally yourselves with.
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Im sure those "mentors" you speak of are ones thst you have personally formed relationships with over the span of your career or your time as Captain or what have you.

Not ones the FAA mandates to you.

How do you suppose a company work this into their training programs? Assigning a new role called a "mentor?" Will check airmen be the only ones legally allowed to be mentors? etc. etc.

I get what everyone is saying about how this is a good thing. I have had the same mentors through my career of whom have helped me out a lot.

However, theres only so much the FAA can do after the Colgan catastrophe. Regulating and mandating a mentorship program seems pointless without people wanting mentors or wanting to be mentors.

Quite frankly, i say theres going to be an underwhelming benefit from this. Why, its going to be seen as another thing to put on a resume. Especially with this hiring environment. Which in turn will draw many people to want to be mentors who really habe no business being mentors. It will probably also become another good ol boys club.

Maybe im being a pessimist because of the culture that has been born from my airline, i just dont see this working as planned.

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ahsmatt7 said:
Im sure those "mentors" you speak of are ones thst you have personally formed relationships with over the span of your career or your time as Captain or what have you.

Not ones the FAA mandates to you.

How do you suppose a company work this into their training programs? Assigning a new role called a "mentor?" Will check airmen be the only ones legally allowed to be mentors? etc. etc.

I get what everyone is saying about how this is a good thing. I have had the same mentors through my career of whom have helped me out a lot.

However, theres only so much the FAA can do after the Colgan catastrophe. Regulating and mandating a mentorship program seems pointless without people wanting mentors or wanting to be mentors.

Quite frankly, i say theres going to be an underwhelming benefit from this. Why, its going to be seen as another thing to put on a resume. Especially with this hiring environment. Which in turn will draw many people to want to be mentors who really habe no business being mentors. It will probably also become another good ol boys club.

Maybe im being a pessimist because of the culture that has been born from my airline, i just dont see this working as planned.

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I really don't know. But I've always tried to keep a tribe going because you're not going to be successful without one.
 
I spent some time looking this up. There is a an FAA publication from the Flight Crew Mentoring, Leadership and Professional Development Rule Making Committee. It is not yet an NPRM. It was published 9-15-2010. There is a little gem in this 109 page document. It's going to get many people upset. I doubt it will ever be enacted, but it will cause controversy.

BACHELOR’S DEGREE REQUIREMENT
BACKGROUND
The 2010 Pilot Source Study found statistically that the best performing new-hire pilots who
required the fewest extra training events and had fewer non-completions in initial training were
those pilots who graduated from accredited collegiate flight programs with college aviation
degrees. In addition, a discussion of industry best practices in regards to pilot hiring revealed
that air carriers prefer applicants who have completed a bachelor‘s degree program. Industry
representatives related that completion of a bachelor‘s degree, even if it is not aviation specific,was still preferable for pilot applicants due to past experience with pilots who were able to successfully complete new-hire pilot training.

(The rule making document says that those without a Bachelor's degree, already working part 121 would be grandfathered in.)

PROBLEM
The MLP ARC discussed whether, in order to enhance the concept of an air carrier pilot as a
profession versus a trade, a bachelor‘s degree or equivalent military flight training, such as
Warrant Officer, should be required of applicants for new-hire pilots at part 121 air carriers.
Title 14 CFR does not currently require new-hire pilots to have a bachelor‘s degree of any type.

DESIRED OUTCOME
For pilots aspiring to become professional pilots: Have the educational experience that is
requisite for a profession.

RECOMMENDATIONS
The MLP ARC recommends that all pilots hired by part 121 air carriers have a minimum of a
bachelor‘s degree or equivalent military flight training.
To recognize the value of previous part 121 air carrier experience, pilots without bachelor‘s
degrees who were hired at part 121 air carriers before the enactment of recommendations of the MLP ARC, should not be required to have a bachelor‘s degree to be considered for employment at other part 121 air carriers.

So here is an FAA rule making committee saying that a person would have to have a bachelor's degree to fly for a part 121 operator. The University Aviation Association, was on the committee and have obviously heavily influenced it. The source study they quote was done by the UAA.

There is no way the RAA or air carriers will go for this. It would raise the cost of their labor when they are trying to find a way to get more people into the industry. The RAA likes the status quo just fine. They know that the majors prefer those with college degrees and when things are slow many of those pilots without get stuck at the regional carriers.
 
Zapphod Beblebrox said:
I spent some time looking this up. There is a an FAA publication from the Flight Crew Mentoring, Leadership and Professional Development Rule Making Committee. It is not yet an NPRM. It was published 9-15-2010. There is a little gem in this 109 page document. It's going to get many people upset. I doubt it will ever be enacted, but it will cause controversy.

BACHELOR’S DEGREE REQUIREMENT
BACKGROUND
The 2010 Pilot Source Study found statistically that the best performing new-hire pilots who
required the fewest extra training events and had fewer non-completions in initial training were
those pilots who graduated from accredited collegiate flight programs with college aviation
degrees. In addition, a discussion of industry best practices in regards to pilot hiring revealed
that air carriers prefer applicants who have completed a bachelor‘s degree program. Industry
representatives related that completion of a bachelor‘s degree, even if it is not aviation specific,was still preferable for pilot applicants due to past experience with pilots who were able to successfully complete new-hire pilot training.

(The rule making document says that those without a Bachelor's degree, already working part 121 would be grandfathered in.)

PROBLEM
The MLP ARC discussed whether, in order to enhance the concept of an air carrier pilot as a
profession versus a trade, a bachelor‘s degree or equivalent military flight training, such as
Warrant Officer, should be required of applicants for new-hire pilots at part 121 air carriers.
Title 14 CFR does not currently require new-hire pilots to have a bachelor‘s degree of any type.

DESIRED OUTCOME
For pilots aspiring to become professional pilots: Have the educational experience that is
requisite for a profession.

RECOMMENDATIONS
The MLP ARC recommends that all pilots hired by part 121 air carriers have a minimum of a
bachelor‘s degree or equivalent military flight training.
To recognize the value of previous part 121 air carrier experience, pilots without bachelor‘s
degrees who were hired at part 121 air carriers before the enactment of recommendations of the MLP ARC, should not be required to have a bachelor‘s degree to be considered for employment at other part 121 air carriers.

So here is an FAA rule making committee saying that a person would have to have a bachelor's degree to fly for a part 121 operator. The University Aviation Association, was on the committee and have obviously heavily influenced it. The source study they quote was done by the UAA.

There is no way the RAA or air carriers will go for this. It would raise the cost of their labor when they are trying to find a way to get more people into the industry. The RAA likes the status quo just fine. They know that the majors prefer those with college degrees and when things are slow many of those pilots without get stuck at the regional carriers.
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I am absolutely on board with this.
 
The FAA said:
The 2010 Pilot Source Study found statistically that the best performing new-hire pilots who required the fewest extra training events and had fewer non-completions in initial training were those pilots who graduated from accredited collegiate flight programs with college aviation degrees. In addition, a discussion of industry best practices in regards to pilot hiring revealed that air carriers prefer applicants who have completed a bachelor‘s degree program. Industry representatives related that completion of a bachelor‘s degree, even if it is not aviation specific, was still preferable for pilot applicants due to past experience with pilots who were able to successfully complete new-hire pilot training.
Click to expand...

This is the first time I've seen something in the commercial/airline industry that said specific study data indicated pilots with undergraduate degrees performed better in airline training.

I'm interested to see their math (number of pilots sampled, from what backgrounds, at which air carriers, over what time period), I am also interested to see the counter-data from the "you don't need a college degree to fly airplanes!" folks (if they have any to provide).

There's obviously a lot of anecdotal information out there that people on both sides of the issue like to use, but specific study data is obviously more useful to the discussion.
 
My mentors didn't try for the role, it just happened because they are great people with good experience and I was lucky enough to meet them. I feel like mentors as an official role will just lead to the same self-serving resume and ego booster types who already inhabit countless training and checking positions, many of which aren't the best fit but are properly connected. A good mentor is arguably the most important piece of the puzzle; IOE lasts 25 hours, but mentor will instill their wisdom on you for a lifetime. Not to mention YOU choose to keep in contact with and learn from your mentors because of the quality of their stuff, not because the FAR's or company requires it. I think we will be very sad with the results of the official and appointed company mentors.
 
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