FAA Releases NPRM for 121 Pilot Mins.

[ahsmatt7]

Of course, it's always been so. I was just musing on how funny it is to be able to "look back" now that I am where I am, and really be able to realize how good of flying it was, and how interesting and neat a gig it was.

I understand. Ever since I heard of that type of flying its seemed to be a fun thing to do.....however I know nothing about how pay is or scheduling works or QoL. That being siad the whole SJS thing is really old and annoying and that's what I was trying to convey in the first part of my message. Thanks for the input.

 

[Douglas]

Getting rid of the "I want it now" SJSers would be very nice, I may have to change my stance on this rule!

Very true, in 2007-08 we were surrounded by the "me first and the gimmie gimmies".

Edit: on second thought, the academy loop hole might allow for those slick websites and cheesy promotional videos to still draw in many afflicted by SJS.

 

[N8081G]

Apples to oranges.

Case 1 is a lack of basic skills that may be needed at any point in time
Case 2 is poor decision making over a period of time

It doesn't matter.

Case 2 could've been just as bad, or even worse than case 1 because last time i checked a 737 is a helluvalot bigger than a Q400.

Tell me something, so far in your professional career, did you ever happen to find yourself making simple mistakes? Ever experienced spatial disorientation? I am in no way picking up for the crew on 3407, evidenced showed that they did indeed screwed up but it can happen to anybody at anytime regardless of the amount of time you have.

 

[lhornaday]

Anyone have any statistics on how many 121 accidents there have been with FOs with less than 1500 hours?

[rant]

One FO stated to his training captain during IOE, "cool, I have never flown through a cloud before!" Probably not uncommon among 250-400 hour pilots taking jobs. Many accelerated guys have probably never flown through a winter/summer and have not experienced what it is like to fly more than 300 miles from home. Besides being a switch mover, what can these FOs bring to the table to help out a captain? Regional CAs already have low pay, bad schedules, all sorts of weather, fatigue, and sometimes not so bright rampers, dispatchers, and FAs to deal with.

While 1500 may be excessive, minimums should definitely increase enough to thwart off the guys and gals who want to go from 0 to "real-life airline pilot" in less than 9 months. No amount of ground training or endorsements on a pilot certificate are worth a darn if it isn't backed up by some life experience.

[/rant]

 

[jhugz]

Apples to oranges.

Case 1 is a lack of basic skills that may be needed at any point in time
Case 2 is poor decision making over a period of time

IDK if I agree w/ this. The whole logic behind this reg is that you gain more experiences over that 1500 hrs to make better decisions over your career.

 

[matt152]

lhornaday;1409977No amount of ground training or endorsements on a pilot certificate are worth a darn if it isn't backed up by some life experience.

Yes, it's real life experience, not numbers in a logbook. 1500 or otherwise.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

While 1500 may be excessive, minimums should definitely increase enough to thwart off the guys and gals who want to go from 0 to "real-life airline pilot" in less than 9 months. No amount of ground training or endorsements on a pilot certificate are worth a darn if it isn't backed up by some life experience.

Well, it is a relatively new concern, because back in the day, no one would hire a 250 hour pilot to be an FO on a large jet aircraft (the RJs are now approaching the size of a DC-9, I now consider the RJ's "large"). Maybe as a Flight Engineer, but that job doesn't really exist anymore.

My only concern with the proposal is waiving hours for certain training? Well, who is going to provide the training, what is it, and who pays for it? My guess is it will end up being airlines providing it, and pilots paying for it. Not too much of a stretch from PFJ, so I would like to see that go (or force employers to pay for it)

But hey, what do I know? I'm time building for my ATP in a Blanik L-13 glider. It will take a few years, but I would be flying the glider anyway

 

[lhornaday]

Now now, i understand your emotions are starting to build up but you could be a bit more professional here. Regardless of someone's experience level they can STILL make simple mistakes. I am pretty sure the guy knows how to recover from a stall, unfortunately that night he didn't.

Take that American Airlines that ran off of the runway in Jamaica, i'm sure those guys probably have over 10,000 hrs each and you'd think they would've made a smarter choice and go for their alternate but they didn't.

I am not sure why, but realistic stall training is not demonstrated at Colgan or any other carrier that I know of. I would take turboprop captians in the sim and and see how they handle the gear and flaps comming down and props going full forward near glideslope intercept. Element of surprise was handled very differently than Sully did in the bus.

And for American, who knows what is going on there. Even the Little Rock, AR crash would have been prevented with a simple diversion. You'd think they'd at least post a memo in flight ops about the dangers of being too macho.

 

[jtrain609]

Now now, i understand your emotions are starting to build up but you could be a bit more professional here. Regardless of someone's experience level they can STILL make simple mistakes. I am pretty sure the guy knows how to recover from a stall, unfortunately that night he didn't.

Take that American Airlines that ran off of the runway in Jamaica, i'm sure those guys probably have over 10,000 hrs each and you'd think they would've made a smarter choice and go for their alternate but they didn't.

Ain't no emotions here, holmes, just the cold hard facts. I like to think that with the number of stalls I've done with students I could be asleep in the dead of night, hear a stall horn go off and still recover correctly.

He didn't have that kind of experience, and the lack of fundamentals in his flying showed through.

That's the thing that gets me about this argument, is that people are saying they don't think it's good that we need more hours, and thus need more time to strengthen our fundamental skills. Can you imagine if a football player said, "I don't need to play in college, just throw me the ball, I'll catch it." Now are there some people that are just so athletically gifted that they can pull it off? Sure there are.

But very likely none of us is one of those people.

 

[derg]

If that is to my post then thank you. It's not the fact that low timers won't be able to get in the right seat that bothers me. It is the FAA's blindsided approach to safety that grinds my gears.

NPRM: "Notice of Proposed Rulemaking"

If it chafes your hide, or grinds your gears, write a business letter to the FAA and clearly explain your perspective on the matter.

Strongly worded internet postings are nothing more than rants when they're decoupled from action.

 

[jhugz]

Ain't no emotions here, holmes, just the cold hard facts. I like to think that with the number of stalls I've done with students I could be asleep in the dead of night, hear a stall horn go off and still recover correctly.

Don't you think a 121 Pilot should have the same perspective? If you were a Capt in the Regionals you have probably been out of the GA game for about 5+ years and haven't done a stall since your flight instruction days. I know if I don't use my knowledge or skills I lose them. This is why I feel the training needs to be beefed up at the regionals. It needs to be put on their shoulders not ours.

 

[lhornaday]

Well, it is a relatively new concern, because back in the day, no one would hire a 250 hour pilot to be an FO on a large jet aircraft (the RJs are now approaching the size of a DC-9, I now consider the RJ's "large"). Maybe as a Flight Engineer, but that job doesn't really exist anymore.

I guess it is not even a concern today. That is until regional airlines start running out of pilots again. And I do cringe thinking that my former students are left seat in a CRJ-900 in their mid-twenties. The only good thing is that the RJs aren't nearly a handful that the Nasty-9s are.

 

[lhornaday]

Strongly worded internet postings are nothing more than rants when they're decoupled from action.

+1

 

[kellwolf]

(4) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least—
(i) 100 hours of cross-country flight time; and
(ii) 25 hours of night flight time.

.

You forgot to bold the big one for me. We've had guys getting to the airline lately with less than the minimum on PIC to get a commercial rating. Even then, most of that time wasn't where they were making the decisions. They could just turn their head to the left, look at their instructor and say "What now?" Hell, I'm all for a solo requirement past what's required for the commercial.

And no, I'm not currently looking for a non-CFI job. The main grip I've heard from people that don't want to CFI however (and this has been true since I got into aviation 8 years ago) has been "There's no jobs out there." Then you point them to a job, and the response is "I don't want to move that far." You can even take that into the CFI realm when some people complain about not being able to find a CFI job.

Point is, things are tough all over right now. Tried to look for a regional job lately? How about the majors? When things start moving again, those other jobs are gonna free up as well. If you don't like the rule, then tell the FAA. Write 'em a letter. Personally, I think we need more experienced guys in the right seat at the regionals. Scares me when I fly through a cloud, and my FO looks at me and says "Awesome!" because it's his first time in IMC. BTW, that's a true story from a MEM-JAX flight. I can understand if you flew 700-1000 hours in Arizona, but you've probably got other things in your bag of tricks to make up for it. If you're sitting at 230 and about 60 hours of PIC, probably not.

The 200-250 hour wonders may have been an anomaly at ASA (since Trip7 said it, it must be, right?), but they weren't all that uncommon here for a LOOOONG time. Guys would come here because all the higher time guys were going to better regionals, they get some time in, then THEY would go to the better regionals. Hence the reason management wanted to offer first "bonus pay" for people staying past 6 months, then a raise for FOs (and FOs only) in order to retain some of those people.

Before someone accuses me of "pulling up the ladder," I would have been for this rule even if I DIDN'T qualify for the ATP. I knew when I got started that I likely would be doing CFI/traffic watch/banner towing/VFR 135/whatever until I got 1200, then the plan was to go to Flight Express or another freight carrier until I could get on with an airline. If the turbine time was there at the freight carrier, I might have even stayed until I got on with a major. I had an opportunity to jump right around the 1000 hour mark, and I took it. I don't begrudge anyone with low time for getting a job at the regionals. I would have to in their place. HOWEVER, I felt, even with 1000 hours, 250 multi and oodles of instrument and cross country, I wasn't ready for the leap and was likely ballast in the right seat for my CAs the first couple of months.

We've got some guys in ATL at 9E that are probably sweating this, too, hoping they grandfather in people below the requirements if it happens.

 

[deadstick]

Anyone have any statistics on how many 121 accidents there have been with FOs with less than 1500 hours?

The statistic you'd want to have is, how many captains have to act as a check airman and coach someone through things they shouldn't have to at the airline level?

Exactly.

There were WAY too many single-pilot 121 flights operating with a right seat observer.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

I guess it is not even a concern today. That is until regional airlines start running out of pilots again.

That would be my guess Anyone that has several thousand hours probably also has a gig that they don't want to leave for 1st year regional pay.

 

[Trip7]

I guess it is not even a concern today. That is until regional airlines start running out of pilots again. And I do cringe thinking that my former students are left seat in a CRJ-900 in their mid-twenties. The only good thing is that the RJs aren't nearly a handful that the Nasty-9s are.

What does age have to do with it? There are guys and girls in their mid twenties flying F-16s, F-18s etc with less than 1000TT defending our country. That's much more of a complex task than Commanding a Barbie Jet 900.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

We've got some guys in ATL at 9E that are probably sweating this, too, hoping they grandfather in people below the requirements if it happens.

230 hours to go...

 

[lhornaday]

What does age have to do with it? There are guys and girls in their mid twenties flying F-16s, F-18s etc with less than 1000TT defending our country. That's much more of a complex task than Commanding a Barbie Jet 900.

I meant the reason is that they were my students and they have a few lives in their hands. anic:

According to your government, a more crucial task is being a regional FO if the requirements go to ATP mins. Either that or military guys are still disposable.

 

[jtrain609]

What does age have to do with it? There are guys and girls in their mid twenties flying F-16s, F-18s etc with less than 1000TT defending our country. That's much more of a complex task than Commanding a Barbie Jet 900.

YYYYEEEAAAARRRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!!

Jesus my head just exploded.