FAA Proposal for ATP/1500 Rule

cmill said:
I dont care if you have 1000 hours of space shuttle time, that doesnt qualify you to decide that a pilot with more experience on a given airframe is less capable because they didnt drink from the same punch bowl.

Oh yeah:

"Elitism:
1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.
2.
a. The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
b. Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class."

In this case the class would be 121 operators.
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The problem with pilots, when it comes to qualifications, is that each individual pilot thinks how he/she got to where he/she is should be the only way to get there.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
The problem with pilots, when it comes to qualifications, is that each individual pilot thinks how he/she got to where he/she is should be the only way to get there.
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Not this one! One thing I've learned is that experience from one job carries over to the others, regardless of aircraft type or operating part.
 
Not to rain on anyone's parade, but the best candidates for training largely depend on the training program you're putting them through.

The disconnect we had at Skyway was sometimes because a bunch of UND grads were treating initial training as if it was an elective class at UND. Which was fantastic if you were a UND grad, but if you from ERAU, Purdue, another regional or one of the six-trillion guys that came over from Basler or StarCheck, it didn't amount to a hill of beans.

Training programs ebb and flow. Even at my own airline, we go from "Here's a stack of books a meter tall, ask your buddies at the guard for the gouge on what's important and know EVERYTHING monday morning" to "Spoon-feeding straight out of the Gerber's jar".

There is no single universal "best" candidate for all training programs. There is a certain "best" candidate depending on how you arrange training. I know what to expect when I go to Atlanta for training. Even though I have a PIC type rating on a 767, there's no guarantee that if I went through 767 initial at American Airlines, that it wouldn't kick my ass.
 
Doug Taylor said:
There is no single universal "best" candidate for all training programs. There is a certain "best" candidate depending on how you arrange training. I know what to expect when I go to Atlanta for training. Even though I have a PIC type rating on a 767, there's no guarantee that if I went through 767 initial at American Airlines, that it wouldn't kick my ass.
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Especially with how different airlines fly the same exact airplane, differently, in some cases. Looking at 727 checklists from different airlines long ago, it was interesting the number of differences in how business was done for the same 727-200.
 
MikeD said:
Especially with how different airlines fly the same exact airplane, differently, in some cases. Looking at 727 checklists from different airlines long ago, it was interesting the number of differences in how business was done for the same 727-200.
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Indeed. I was unaware there was more than one way to fly the Jungle Jet, until I discussed it with a few folks from the "other" operator. Apparently there is.

Das, I know that the varied experience is what makes us safe and strong. That's not going to stop folks from going "I had to fly to and from primary from a grass strip with headwinds both ways! Everyone else should do this!"


Sent from Seat 3D
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Did the best results continue to line flying? Not trolling.
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Honestly, out on the line I couldn't tell much of a difference in any of the newbies, except for the mainline furloughees, who were always on top of things. Everyone, no matter what their background, had a hard time adjusting until they had 200-300 hours. The key is getting through the training program first, then you have the opportunity to get used to things after a few hundred hours.
 
I did not fly with many bad FOs, but those I did fell into one of two extreme groups. On the one hand I had a few 250 hour wonder pilots who somehow slipped through training and had difficulty maintaining proficiency on reserve when they were only called once every three weeks. The other extreme were high time pilots usually from 135/125 backgrounds who "faked" it through training then tried to do things "the old way" once they hit the line. Furloughed airline pilots never fell into this group as they knew the deal. I remember two FOs in particular who had vast experience flying different aircraft throughout the world. There were several attempts on their part at role reversal; poor checklist use and standard call out terminology (they insisted on reverting back to their old company call outs); poor ATC terminology. One was so bad and would not listen to me that we had to have a coming to Jesus meeting with the CP after he attempted to release the prop brake on the ATR while we were being de-iced on the right wing.
On the flip side a few groups never had problems. As I mentioned I never had an issue with pilots with previous 121 experience. Same with military pilots. Pilots with varied experience never seemed to be an issue. Same with freight dogs.
So I guess what I've gotten from my experience is that there are variables that go into a good crew. I understand the goal here but find it ironic that none of the new ATP parameters would have prevented the Buffalo crash. I do like the idea of increasing the time in class requirement for the ATP, but otherwise think they have missed their mark. The goal should have been changes to 121 training requirements; changes to requirements for a commercial rating; changes to requirements for the ATP. Just look at the question that is asked on this board. Pilots do not ask where they should go for the best multiengine training, they ask where to go to get it cheapest and easiest. Personally I am not so sure that the new requirements will make the general public safer- perhaps even make things less safe. We shall see said the blind man.
 
I am not sure how this negatively affects the freight dogs. I flew freight because amflight guaranteed me a flow through to SWA. Now I know it's not true but with 2000 tpic, I am not looking to fly for a regional as a street captain or expect an early upgrade because of my high TT. When the hiring boom comes I want to get hired by anyone flying heavy metal, not a regional, who this ruling is aimed at.

As far as ERAU and UND having an unfair advantage, I don't see that as well. You would still be years and $100k ahead by going to a local college, getting your ratings as fast as you can, teaching when you get your cgi, and graduating with 1500 hours.

As far as affecting the wages, I don't see this rule doing anything, except there may be higher qualified FOs getting underpaid. It's a matter of supply and demand, if this extra hoop to jump through causes people to quit flying or not even start, then the unintended consequences will be a pay increase, and my 2500 hours of freight time might actually look good on my resume to the heavy metal employers.
 
Adler said:
New NAFI article today...

Flight Training Capacity in the Context of Recent Legislation:
An Examination of the Impacts of Reduced Training Capacity,
and the Declining Rates of Airmen Certification

http://www.nafinet.org/File/Flight ...ation - by Jason Blair and Jonathon Freye.pdf
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Wow! If you believe all of that paper, we will all be filthy rich! :). Seriously though, he has some seriously flawed arguments. The one thing that the new NPRM will do is insure that instructors instruct for two to three years before transitioning to the 121 environment. Which is kind of funny because when I learned to fly in the early to mid 90's, that was instructors did then.
 
skydisaster said:
The one thing that the new NPRM will do is insure that instructors instruct for two to three years before transitioning to the 121 environment. Which is kind of funny because when I learned to fly in the early to mid 90's, that was instructors did then.
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Who would of thought that instructing for 2-3 years would have solved all of our problems....
 
Whats funny is, i talked to our POI today to try and figure out how to skirt the rules in the cheapest way possible, and she had no idea about the NPRM. The best advice i got to avoid all the new ATP requirements was to get a single engine ATP, and do the multi as an add on.
 
cmill said:
Whats funny is, i talked to our POI today to try and figure out how to skirt the rules in the cheapest way possible, and she had no idea about the NPRM. The best advice i got to avoid all the new ATP requirements was to get a single engine ATP, and do the multi as an add on.
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The problem is that the language is specific to the multi engine rating, so I don't think doing a single initial will get around the requirements if you try to do the multi engine rating later.
 
mojo6911 said:
The problem is that the language is specific to the multi engine rating, so I don't think doing a single initial will get around the requirements if you try to do the multi engine rating later.
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From what I read it seems like it only applies to taking the written, so unless they come up with a separate knowledge test for ME ATP then it seems like you should be good. You don't need to take a separate written to get a multi add on.
 
cmill said:
Whats funny is, i talked to our POI today to try and figure out how to skirt the rules in the cheapest way possible, and she had no idea about the NPRM. The best advice i got to avoid all the new ATP requirements was to get a single engine ATP, and do the multi as an add on.
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I did my ATP ASEL first, and then used my first type to satisfy the AMEL part.
 
cmill said:
From what I read it seems like it only applies to taking the written, so unless they come up with a separate knowledge test for ME ATP then it seems like you should be good. You don't need to take a separate written to get a multi add on.
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Or get your ATP right now. (BRB TAKING WRITTEN)
 
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