FAA Proposal for ATP/1500 Rule
- Thread starter Shiek Yiboudi
- Start date
Goonie
Never say die
I think you're just jealous
Well, Its 70 degrees here and I'm eating Hard Eight in KSEP. Now who's jealous?
Trip7
Well-Known Member
100% agree
I know I'm going to get flamed, but the truth hurts.
ASA's training department has stated numerous times that statistically, single pilot 135 pilots have the most difficult time with initial 121 training.
If they struggle just to get in the right seat, can't imagine going straight to the left seat.
z987k
Well-Known Member
I'm curious which part, because something I've learned in 135 is how to really fly ifr, something no one flying around in an airplane you instruct in can do because the airplane isn't all weather capable. Is it just the crew aspect?
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
So is your mom.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
Personally the one big gripe I have with this as I alluded to before is the reduction a person gets for a degree from an accredited "aviation" university- also known as the ERAU boondoggle. Just to show how silly this is as written- someone with an aeronautical engineering or meteorology degree from MIT needs 1500 hours. Someone with an aviation management degree- 1000 hours. Yeah, I see the safety enhancement there. I would like to see the study that supported this "safety enhancement". Or are we just throwing darts and hoping we don't accidentally hit the waitress?
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
It was the opposite when I was there. Those who flew single pilot 135 were normally making it through training with no issues... Of course we started out on the ATR or the Emb-120. I could see issues for pilots who could not get use to using the flight director or autopilot in the CRJ. In addition the jet does not handle like a turbo prop.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
I'd like to see some data for that. Frankly, I think its false. Now maybe when compared to furloughed 121 guys yeah, but I don't see that being the case on average. There will always be screw ups at every company, but I sincerely doubt the 135 guys are dropping like flies in ground.
If the truth hurts so much, it cuts the other way too. We wouldn't hire guys from the regionals at a couple places up in AK that I worked because they didn't know how to fly outside of the 121 environment. Not saying its right, but yeah. The guys that burned us though were inflexible about how they thought things should be done. I imagine that 135 guys who atrite in 121 ground schools are equally unflexible. I don't really see any appreciable regulatory difference between the reg structures, the only thing I can envision being a problem is crew coordination and use of automation.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
It probably has something to do with playing well with others, if I had to guess. Or just learning to work with someone else in the airplane.
You get to do everything. When I'm flying, I do heading, altitude, and airspeed. When I'm monitoring, I do everything else.
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
DE is bad. However the regs may force it to happen at high attrition airlines such as Lakes and Commutair. I would want the opertunity to be available if it were to happen. There is no entitlement in this discussion. I am not demanding a direct hire PIC slot. I would like the opportunity if the situation were to arise.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
There may be some SPIFR washouts because of this, but this is easily taken care of with a "cooperate and graduate" attitude, as well as a training department willing to work with you (which don't always exist). Personally, I was fresh out of a 402 when I checked out with a PIC type in a 757/767, and I will tell you 100% that my 402 experience was huge when it came to making it through training (which was not a gimme). I had some RJ experience before that, but when it came time to do some of the more hardball sims and display command authority in preparation for a full type, the 402 time is the main experience I drew upon. Absolutely no question.
So again, SPIFR pilots are not at all at a disadvantage when it comes to doing turbine 121 work. It's a mental shift, but overall I wouldn't say that it's any sort of handicap.
I went from a military crew environment, to a SPIFR environment, back to a military crew environment. The transitions were non-events. I find it hard to believe people actually have an issue doing it. I know they do, but I guess I wonder if they have a hard time doing it, what's wrong with them?
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
I'd say going back to a crew was tough initially. You get so used to doing everything yourself, and when I came back to a crew environment, I'd been single pilot for about 3000hrs or so. It took an adjustment to force myself to elucidate what I wanted to do clearly, because I was used to just, well, doing it. It wasn't hard, and provided I actually thought about the guy next to me (egads!) things went smoothly. It helped having flown as a crew back when I first started, but honestly I could see guys who'd been single pilot for 1000s upon 1000s of hours without any crew experience struggling to coordinate from one guy to another.
Your background is different as well, if I remember correctly, the Army doesn't do anything single pilot. Which means, you "grew up" in the crew environment. In that regard, you were adequately prepared for crew ops. Additionally, if I remember right, you did your fixed wing stuff in the civilian world - so, you probably learned fixed wing from the standpoint of single pilot. At the end of the day, you've probably had the best training to go back and forth between the two. Not everyone has that. It's not that single pilot is appreciably more difficult, or that two crew is harder, rather, the workload and how tasks are delegated is different. As long as you can play nice with others, as a captain try not to sweat the small stuff (that was what was hardest for me), as an FO be open to doing things differently, and together not let technique interfere with procedure, you'll be fine. These aren't things that are innate, they - like any other type of leadership/followership have to be learned.
I see your point. I've always found being adaptable helps as well.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
I have seen it (PM if you'd like to discuss it). I have no idea.
I should also mention, after re-reading my post about how the transitions were a non-issue and all that I am in no way trying to say I'm a super-pilot or anything. I'm a cooperate and graduate kind of guy and just kind of assumed crew vs. single pilot transitions and back were fairly easy for anyone.
Blip16
Well-Known Member
I've always felt the atp should have been a requirement to sit in either pilot seat of a 121, so I'm happy with that aspect of the rule
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk
"VFR? But, that's unsafe! It's not how things were done at Pissant Regional airlines. This place is unsafe!!!"
Fully agree. They've been easy for me, and I come from a lifetime of single-pilot ops, from traffic, to civil cargo 135, to military fighter/attack. Now, Im in C550 and UH-60s, with crew, AND I go back and forth from single-pilot to crew ops, almost daily. It's just a matter of being flexible. If one is rigid and not flexible, then they won't be able to transition.....whether the 135 cargo guy trying to go to a 121 crew operation, or the 121 furloughed RJ CA/FO trying to go fly single pilot cargo.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Well, let me put it this way, it isn't hard. It's just different. Adaptability - as you mentioned - is key, really its the only thing that matters. Cooperate to graduate is certainly a factor, but if you don't have the proper training or experience in the crew world to draw from, you'll flounder through briefings, ignore body language cues, and fail to delegate tasks that would make your life easier. Also realizing that what you were flying before doesn't matter, and you have to do it "their way" with "their callouts," "their flows," and "their procedures," is something that screws with guys. Then, when another crewmember jumps into the airplane and expects X but gets Y his natural response is "WTF? These SPIFR guys suck!"
Crew Resource Management does not come naturally in a world where we're taught to be self-reliant from day one, then go to a freight company to be thrown to the wolves and left for dead at an outstation. Now, the Resource Management in the Cockpit is usually pretty good for single pilot guys, when they get an extra body there some guys don't know how to Manage Resources as a Crew.
It doesn't help that freight has a culture of "HURRY THE # UP!" I'm guilty of it to, I'll be flying an approach and catch myself screaming inbound on the localizer just to realize "hey, wait a sec, this approach is faily low, I should really slow down a bit." Then again, those sorts of things are useful later flying faster airplanes, or in a situation where you have to go fast, but a paradigm shift is necessary when doing other types of flying. Some guys aren't flexible enough to make the switch. Hope when the time comes to it, I am.