FAA Proposal for ATP/1500 Rule

Also, 1,000 hours in my 121 operation is 3-5 years depending on your fleet.

That is all. :)

See this is where I struggle with the FAA's logic. On page 74 of the NPRM, the following statement is made: "The number of flight hours the FAA assumes pilots can accumulate in one year is also about 750 hours." By the FAA's logic they are looking for someone to have a little over a year of experience in the right seat before one moves to the left seat. However, they don't take into account companies like Omni. Dasleben, correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Omni would be a good stepping stone to a major, but based on your numbers above, it would take a zero time 121 guy 3-5 years to get to the left seat, and then another 3-5 years to build 1000 hours jet PIC to just get to the minimums to get to a major.
 
10,000 hours of PIC time in a part 135 operation, even if it goes in the same column of your logbook, doesn't qualify you to sidestep into part 121 operations. Is it great prep time? Sure is, but it's not equivalent.

Where does this sense of entitlement come from?

Where does this sense of elitism come from? Does it come standard with 1000hrs swinging gear in a Barbie jet?
 
The market will adjust, it always does. I would guess that Omni and places like it will be forced to become more of a career destination. Their latest contract seems to have headed in that direction already. IMHO, this is just another nail in the coffin of the Legacies as "the only real job".
 
It is my observation that most people think their path to this job is the best/only way here. Somehow we all believe we deserve to move straight to the left seat of a 747 because "damnit, look at all the stuff I've gone through!" I'm going to take the unpopular view and say I think this new regulation is a good idea for many reasons.

Yes, I was hired into the right seat of an RJ at 660 hours. I was very lucky to be in that position. I wasn't there because I had some sort of great ability as a pilot, but because the pool of qualified applicants had dried up. I was hired because I had a pulse. Training was hard, but ASA has a great training department who knew what kind of pilots they were dealing with and taught accordingly.

Needing 1500 hours to be hired at a regional is not an abnormal thing. It is my understanding that low timers going straight to the right seat is not how this industry has worked for most of its existence. I understand that it is a few more hoops to jump through, but I don't think that's a bad thing.

Look at a the advertising for most of the flight schools out there. How many market themselves on the quality of their instruction vs. how quickly they can get you a job? Look at how most people (myself included) study for FAA written exams. Teach the test vs. actually having a solid grasp on the material. The system is broken.

1500 hours is a drop in the bucket. If this rule came into effect when I was still a flight instructor, it would have slowed me down by a year at the most. I know it doesn't seem like it while you are still training, but hours pile up quickly once you are doing it professionally. On top of that you're getting paid. More importantly you are gaining experience. I wouldn't say that I was a "good" pilot until I was actively working as a flight instructor for a few months. Until that point, every check ride was an unsure thing. Sure I had performed all the maneuvers adequately in the past, but who knows how the check ride would turn out. Now, the flying part of the check ride is the easy part. I own the airplane, it does what I want it to do. All the time.

Then there is the ATP course in the NPR. I fail to see how being required to learn about multi crew environments, high speed/altitude aerodynamics, etc that are required for this job is a bad thing. There are a lot of things that transfer over from a light GA airplane to flying a jet/turboprop. But there are also a lot of things that you will have had zero experience with. This is an entirely different kind of flying altogether.

This rule won't stop anyone who is truly motivated to to this for a living. If you really have a passion for flying, the extra education will actually be a good experience, as long as you make it a point to slow down and enjoy the journey. However, there are a lot of people who simply want to be an airline pilot for the title. They're the ones who will be weeded out. If we're truthful with ourselves, this job isn't currently that difficult to attain. The most difficult part is the financial aspect of it. If you have money/credit and a little persistence, anybody can find a job at a regional.

I think that is part of why this profession has become what it is today. In the past this profession was filled with people who were passionate about the job, always trying to increase their skills. But now there are a lot of people in our ranks who do this simply because "they thought it would be cool." I hope that these will be the ones that are weeded out. Not to sound like one to pull up the ladder, I think decreasing the quantity but increasing the quality of the pilot pool in this country will lead to good things.

This post made me happy and made me rest easy. I've got that passion and drive.
 
Dude. Your employment should not be where you channel your passion and drive. That's a huge waste. Every job is, in the end, just a job. I think about the guys who I've known who had "passion and drive" for their chosen profession and I'm hard pressed to come up with one who is even Content, let alone Happy. Feel passion and drive for the things you aren't paid to do. It lasts longer that way.
 
Right, you'll be retesting then?

Why would he retest? He got his ATP legitimately.

Really, when you look at the JAA ATPL, ours is a joke. You can buy Sheppard Air for $75 and get a >90 score on the knowledge test in 2 days. In Europe, it is a long, drawn out process with 13 written exams on various topics.
 
Why would he retest? He got his ATP legitimately.

Really, when you look at the JAA ATPL, ours is a joke. You can buy Sheppard Air for $75 and get a >90 score on the knowledge test in 2 days. In Europe, it is a long, drawn out process with 13 written exams on various topics.
I don't disagree, at all. In fact, I think it would be great to have something that approaches the JAA ATPL in terms of rigor in certification. 13 exams is overkill, but when it's more difficult knowledge-wise to get a CFI initial there's something wrong. And the current ATP curriculum is best categorized as a "good joke" in this country, for sure. And I do think this is a welcome improvement overall, but I think it's far, far from perfect. In fact, it almost does a disservice to current operators that go beyond the (very barebones) second in command qualification requirements. Saying that Embry-Riddle is a more valuable experience than 121 initial training is suspect at best.

In other words, "if your company doesn't already do these things, then they really need to get their act together, and start doing these things."

In terms of actual flight training, a lot of airlines put their FOs through mostly-full type rides anyway. The only things that we don't do where I work are no-flap landings and steep turns. My back of the napkin proposal involves the issuance of a frozen ATPL with a full PIC type rating, with the license itself bearing the restriction "Holder does not meet the pilot-in-command experience requirements of ICAO" upon completion of Part 121 initial training, unless the pilot has more than 1,500 hours and meets all other full-ATP requirements. But, that's just me. Your mileage may vary.
 
The simple fact of the matter is that you're never going to learn how to fly an airplane when you would rather not fly an airplane until you do it. The skills of triaging information, making informed decisions, and showing "judgment" can't be taught...they have to be learned. Can they be learned from the right seat? Yeah, I think they can, although I also think they're learned better from the left seat in something slow and forgiving. Where they can't be learned is on the ground in a classroom.
 
Where does this sense of elitism come from? Does it come standard with 1000hrs swinging gear in a Barbie jet?
I'm sorry but it is apparent you don't have a clue on 121 operations. To wit: the gear swinging comment. As far as the Barbie jet badasses they are embarassing. There is a lot of that from both sides of the industry.
 
Just to be clearthe JAA/EASA "frozen ATPL" is a marketing term. Won't find it in the JAR/FCL. It is simply a Multi comm instrument with the ATP written (14 not 13) complete. It is the min hirable and can be done in 200 hrs. To get an ATPL you need 1.5 K with 500 hrs multi crew and a ATP/Type ride.
 
Still don't understand why you were asking him if he was going to retest for his ATP. o_O
I guess I was a combination of not really awake/feeling rather snarky.

Actually, I guess my logic was "if all ATPs issued outside of this program are X, then shouldn't all ATP holders retest?" Which is crap logic, so never mind.
 
I would guess that Omni and places like it will be forced to become more of a career destination.

happycan.jpg
 
Look. We've all had them. You know them, the "oh, poop" moments when all your careful planning (or lack thereof) goes out the window and it's just you and this thing you have to find a place to land. Maybe you should have looked harder at the radar (guilty!) or maybe you should have looked at more than just the TAF for your destination (also guilty). The point is you don't learn how to adapt and overcome by reading a book or being lectured to. You learn by doing something dumb and knowing that you'll never do it again. Everything else is window-dressing. This is (IMHO) topical because all the classroom instruction in the world won't teach you what it's like to be the guy who is responsible. Sitting next to the guy might give you a slight entre in to what it feels like to be him, but in that case it's ultimately his problem, even if it's your ass, too. Of all the myriad and ridiculous logbook-entries the actuaries want of us, I think PIC is the most important, whether it's turbine, piston, or glider. Knowing that when the hammer falls, it will fall on your poor little head will change your whole outlook in a heartbeat. And that is as it should be.
 
Also in the JAA world - hours credit differently toward the ATPL, for example P2 time (SIC) might only count at 50% toward the hour requirements to 'thaw' the ATPL - It depends on the country. A few of the JAA exams are only 1 or 2 questions, granted a multi step question, and all are very different than our 'LaserGrade' boxed exams. Alas, where is this 121 outfit where my only duty is to 'swing the gear'? That menial task would surly be more consummate to my salary!

cheers!
 
I'm not sure I'd want the Euro version of anything. They seem to think that "talking about flying" is just as good as "actually flying".

Richman
 
Dude. Your employment should not be where you channel your passion and drive. That's a huge waste. Every job is, in the end, just a job. I think about the guys who I've known who had "passion and drive" for their chosen profession and I'm hard pressed to come up with one who is even Content, let alone Happy. Feel passion and drive for the things you aren't paid to do. It lasts longer that way.

I feel sorry for you. Awhile ago I decided to quit my job because
it was just a job. I had my private and loved my time in the air. It was the only time I could get away from people calling me on my too little time off asking me stupid questions.

I went to flight school and got my professional ratings. Now I look forward to going to work.

I see many of the great cities of the world and I find myself popping out of a dull overcast into the bright sun and I've got a stupid grin on my face.

Things aren't perfect. No job is but the small niggly things are a small price to pay compared to the cost of pursuing aviation as a hobby.

Granted it may not last as you say but it's been great for the last 25+ years.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk
 
Dude. Your employment should not be where you channel your passion and drive. That's a huge waste. Every job is, in the end, just a job. I think about the guys who I've known who had "passion and drive" for their chosen profession and I'm hard pressed to come up with one who is even Content, let alone Happy. Feel passion and drive for the things you aren't paid to do. It lasts longer that way.

Eh, yeah I agree with you in some respects. A job is a job. Then again, I'm not everybody. There are people who are paid for something they have a passion and drive for and are still happy. I didn't study for what I do now. I'd like to at least try to study for something I like to do and get paid for it at the same time.

But this thread is about the outrage and dismal outlook of the upcoming future for those seeking employment at the airlines! So I won't cause a derail any further.
 
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