FAA Neglecting Their Job Causing A&P's Their Jobs

knot4u said:
Looked again at the current amm, nowhere does it mention covering the gear. The manual says lube the gear before and after "washing" the airplane, lotsa work for A/Ps. I'm thinking of jumping to the dark side (FAA), I could certainly make a name for myself busting people for not following the amm to the letter.
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Definitely! Get enough buzz going on at the FAA they might just get off their butts and get rid of these auto-detailers nation wide.
 
I'm not an A&P but I am the pilot of a small corporation. We just had our airplane detailed by a auto detail company. The cost was $500 for a King Air. I would never in my life think to call a A&P in to clean the aircraft. First off, most would call me crazy, second off I don't want to fill my logbooks up with stuff like "aircraft detail". I understand your point mainly because that is how you marketed yourself in your business and since the FAA is more relaxed now it hurts you as a company. I however know small corporations would not pay a mechanic to come in and "clean" an aircraft for $120 an hour, that's ridiculous. So then it would be made my job. So that is where I don't agree with your philosophy. I'm a pilot, not a detail guy.

Also, it took 4 people 4 hours to detail our airplane. It's hard to believe one mechanic could do it in 3-4 hours.
 
He's got a point, auto detail guys aren't going to know what they don't know and I could easily see one of them making an oops and causing a crash. Be a good idea (and arguably, legally required) to have a certificated individual supervising the process.
 
It took 16 man hours because they obviously don't know what they are doing. A Kingair 350 completely filthy can be done in less than 3 man ours. (I did it for over 25 years!)
This includes the landing gear so clean you can lick it. If you would've had an A&P mechanic do it that knew what he was doing and how to properly set up, you would have paid 166 an hour.
$500 / 3 hours = $166. So you see $120 an hour is less that what you paid for. The local A&P at your field got nothing. The c/w a/c cleaning entry in your logbook is not a big deal and it's a federal law!
 
dufur2003 said:
I'm not an A&P but I am the pilot of a small corporation. We just had our airplane detailed by a auto detail company. The cost was $500 for a King Air. I would never in my life think to call a A&P in to clean the aircraft. First off, most would call me crazy, second off I don't want to fill my logbooks up with stuff like "aircraft detail". I understand your point mainly because that is how you marketed yourself in your business and since the FAA is more relaxed now it hurts you as a company. I however know small corporations would not pay a mechanic to come in and "clean" an aircraft for $120 an hour, that's ridiculous. So then it would be made my job. So that is where I don't agree with your philosophy. I'm a pilot, not a detail guy.

Also, it took 4 people 4 hours to detail our airplane. It's hard to believe one mechanic could do it in 3-4 hours.
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Would you go to Home Depot for "help" on your house, I'm talking about the readily available workforce standing outside?
 
Washing any aircraft without proper knowledge of what needs to be cleaned, what it needs to be cleaned with and how it's supposed to be cleaned can cause long term issues. Not all things on the aircraft are cleaned with water. Some things need isopropyl alcohol, some needs soap/water, some need corrosion preventative compounds of various grades, certain items need greasing, certain things can't be contaminated with water.. all things that are in any manufacturer's maintenance publication - a piece of literature that probably isn't going to be skimmed through prior to pressure washing and waxing the aircraft so that pilots who don't know any better with no a&p/maintenance background can get a warm a fuzzy about their aircraft being shiny. Next thing you know that single-radio trainer aircraft that the student is solo'ing in is without comm because some water corroded and shorted out a couple pins in a connector that an A&P would have used avionics grade CPC on to PREVENT while HE was cleaning the aircraft the RIGHT WAY.

Cleaning an aircraft cosmetically as well as preventative maintenance & inspections are the same thing in aviation maintenance & go hand in hand. This is common since to the seasoned mech. A 3rd party company should not even be allowed to touch an aircraft without supervision. If the aircraft malfunctions due to something like I described above and you go back to investigate.. the aircraft cleaning company sure isn't going to get blamed; it'll be the A&P taking the fall. Not to climb any higher up on the box with this rant, but I've seen little things like I described above get people killed - so yeah, @A&Pdude, I wholeheartedly agree with you. It's BS and the FAA need's to be more strict in enforcing the rules.
 
Andrew_Neal said:
Washing any aircraft without proper knowledge of what needs to be cleaned, what it needs to be cleaned with and how it's supposed to be cleaned can cause long term issues. Not all things on the aircraft are cleaned with water. Some things need isopropyl alcohol, some needs soap/water, some need corrosion preventative compounds of various grades, certain items need greasing, certain things can't be contaminated with water.. all things that are in any manufacturer's maintenance publication - a piece of literature that probably isn't going to be skimmed through prior to pressure washing and waxing the aircraft so that pilots who don't know any better with no a&p/maintenance background can get a warm a fuzzy about their aircraft being shiny. Next thing you know that single-radio trainer aircraft that the student is solo'ing in is without comm because some water corroded and shorted out a couple pins in a connector that an A&P would have used avionics grade CPC on to PREVENT while HE was cleaning the aircraft the RIGHT WAY.

Cleaning an aircraft cosmetically as well as preventative maintenance & inspections are the same thing in aviation maintenance & go hand in hand. This is common since to the seasoned mech. A 3rd party company should not even be allowed to touch an aircraft without supervision. If the aircraft malfunctions due to something like I described above and you go back to investigate.. the aircraft cleaning company sure isn't going to get blamed; it'll be the A&P taking the fall. Not to climb any higher up on the box with this rant, but I've seen little things like I described above get people killed - so yeah, @A&Pdude, I wholeheartedly agree with you. It's BS and the FAA need's to be more strict in enforcing the rules.
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Especially on a retract I would want a mech to go behind the cleaning crew and re-grease the gear.
 
A&Pdude said:
Aircraft Cleaning is considered PM-Preventive Maintenance as listed in the A&P handbook Ch. 6-19 thru 6-25.
You will also find the aircraft cleaning procedures listed in the aircrafts Maintenance Manual making it an A&P ticket item only but nobody bothers to look there especially the FAA (they don't even know how!).
The FAR's describe PM as work that can only be accomplished by an A&P or by the Pilot/Owner of their own aircraft if Part 91. Part 135 and 121 only by an A&P.
If the work is performed by the Pilot/Owner they have to do their own work. If by an A&P, the A&P can supervise and sign the logbook.
The FAA in the last 5 years has turned their backs on the A&P mechanics and are allowing auto-detailers to come onto the airfields and clean aircraft. This has saturated the market and brought prices way down. Good for the aircraft owner (pocket book not safety - does Aeroperu 603 come to mind!) not so for the A&P.
If you're an A&P reading this and thinking that cleaning aircraft isn't what you signed up for consider this:
Turning wrenches you're making $35/hourly to $45 if you're lucky.
Cleaning aircraft, $120/hourly
Got your attention yet!?
It's time to put a stop to auto-detailers taking over the aviators jobs. To make this happen go to your local FAA and make a formal complaint.
Chances are (better than 95%) your local FAA will not give you the time of day with this. Insist that they give you a real answer. They will then get back to you and pawn you off to another agency within the FAA which will then put you in an endless loop.
Like most Gov. workers they are lazy and too afraid to take responsibility and initiative.
When this happens write a formal complaint using the FAA online forms found at http://faa.custhelp.com/app/ask. They FAA will then have to investigate and respond back to you.
Go get 'em!... And start making some money!
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I think if the FAA actually started enforcing this reg, what you'd see is auto detailers still doing the job, while an A&P supervises. And since this would drive the cost of maintenance up, I think you'd start to see more work performed under the supervision of a mechanic, rather than by a mechanic. Be careful what you wish for.
 
Just for grins, I called up a local A and P and asked him what he would charge to clean my aircraft. He basically told me to pound sand. Seemed like he thought it was beneath him.
 
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