FAA Neglecting Their Job Causing A&P's Their Jobs

A&Pdude

A&Pdude

New Member
Aircraft Cleaning is considered PM-Preventive Maintenance as listed in the A&P handbook Ch. 6-19 thru 6-25.
You will also find the aircraft cleaning procedures listed in the aircrafts Maintenance Manual making it an A&P ticket item only but nobody bothers to look there especially the FAA (they don't even know how!).
The FAR's describe PM as work that can only be accomplished by an A&P or by the Pilot/Owner of their own aircraft if Part 91. Part 135 and 121 only by an A&P.
If the work is performed by the Pilot/Owner they have to do their own work. If by an A&P, the A&P can supervise and sign the logbook.
The FAA in the last 5 years has turned their backs on the A&P mechanics and are allowing auto-detailers to come onto the airfields and clean aircraft. This has saturated the market and brought prices way down. Good for the aircraft owner (pocket book not safety - does Aeroperu 603 come to mind!) not so for the A&P.
If you're an A&P reading this and thinking that cleaning aircraft isn't what you signed up for consider this:
Turning wrenches you're making $35/hourly to $45 if you're lucky.
Cleaning aircraft, $120/hourly
Got your attention yet!?
It's time to put a stop to auto-detailers taking over the aviators jobs. To make this happen go to your local FAA and make a formal complaint.
Chances are (better than 95%) your local FAA will not give you the time of day with this. Insist that they give you a real answer. They will then get back to you and pawn you off to another agency within the FAA which will then put you in an endless loop.
Like most Gov. workers they are lazy and too afraid to take responsibility and initiative.
When this happens write a formal complaint using the FAA online forms found at http://faa.custhelp.com/app/ask. They FAA will then have to investigate and respond back to you.
Go get 'em!... And start making some money!
 
So if I am reading this right, you'd like mechanics to generate enough attention to the cleaning industry so that the FAA can't ignore it and then create more regulations to further increase an A&P's work load? Or create a new rating, not Mechanic: Aircraft & Powerplant but Mechanic: Washer & Waxer?
 
No new ratings, no new regulations. I'm taking about enforcing the regulations that have always been there. The FAA was pretty tight on this until about 5 years ago. Their excuse is limited amount of agents. This has started to bring in auto-detailers without any oversight.
 
Aircraft Polisher=$120/hourly
A&P wrencher=$35/hourly
No matter how you look at it, it's an A&P ticket item!... and A&P's are losing their jobs to the auto industry because no one is complaining.
 
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Think soap all you want if you want to ignorant on this issue and keep yourself in the poor house.
I think about the bottom line... Jobs - Income
 
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Your thread states: FAA neglecting their job....
How?
I've been in aviation since 1977. Started working line service, have my A&P/IA, ATP ASEL/AMEL, CFI &I, MEI, 5 type ratings, over 7500 hours, been a DME, ASI, owned my own FBO for 14 years, had a 135 certificate, owned several aircraft, etc etc etc. I'm not new to the industry and I'm definitely not ignorant to the issues. I've worked hard for everything I have and to get where I am. And that included cleaning aircraft.
It is not just jobs - income, it's how hard is someone willing to work.
I feel if someone wants to clean aircraft more power to them. It's not exactly an easy job if it's done correctly.
That's my soapbox.
 
"if it's done correctly" is the key ingredient. Cleaning must be signed off in the a/c logbook i/w FAR 43.
If you like soap - I received my A&P in 82. First job was PSA in SAN and saw washing a/c as a great niche because only A&P's could do the work (back then the FAA was strict about it).
My A&P helped me achieve my own business cleaning a/c and employ over 300 individuals in a 10 year span with an income of over 2 million a year. That's my soap, not the before mentioned.
If A&P's continues to ignore auto-detailers taking their work and not complaining to the FAA it is a big loss to us who truly love aviation and worked/schooled there way into it.
 
A&Pdude said:
"if it's done correctly" is the key ingredient. Cleaning must be signed off in the a/c logbook i/w FAR 43.
If you like soap - I received my A&P in 82. First job was PSA in SAN and saw washing a/c as a great niche because only A&P's could do the work (back then the FAA was strict about it).
My A&P helped me achieve my own business cleaning a/c and employ over 300 individuals in a 10 year span with an income of over 2 million a year. That's my soap, not the before mentioned.
If A&P's continues to ignore auto-detailers taking their work and not complaining to the FAA it is a big loss to us who truly love aviation and worked/schooled there way into it.
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Ah.. There it is. "The FAA isn't doing their job which is impacting MY business!"
 
I'm retired and the business was sold. I'm just trying to reach out to A&P's out there that want to make a better life for themselves and stay in aviation.
 
Not to ask a stupid question, but why are people paying $120 an hour to have their airplane cleaned, when you claim they can pay an A&P $35 for the same thing?

It would seem like the fault is with the A&P for not marketing their services...
 
NickH said:
Not to ask a stupid question, but why are people paying $120 an hour to have their airplane cleaned, when you claim they can pay an A&P $35 for the same thing?

It would seem like the fault is with the A&P for not marketing their services...
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I fully agree that the fault is with the A&P's for not marketing their services. Most A&P's are not entrepreneurial enough to create their own work therefore they don't realize extra money is sitting directly under their noses. And to top it off, auto-detailers are stepping in and taking their work with an average charge to clean a small Citation jet for $400 which only takes 2 to 3 hours by yourself.
If the A&P were smart enough he could make a formal complaint to the FAA for safety violation of non-compliance (no A&P or Pilot/Owner doing the work) and eliminate competition. Then the A&P can go in and market himself "A&P certified!".
 
If the A&P were smart enough he'd be cleaning jets for $120 an hour, rather than working as an A&P for $35.
 
Checked chptr. 12-00-00 of the G-IV AMM and @A&Pdude is correct, a log entry would be required if you performed the procedure as described. Of course part of the procedure requires performing NLG and MLG lube procedures and some corrosion prevention reapplication which require CMP signoffs and updates and is based on actually washing the airplane, not just wiping it down with towels and spray bottles like the "detailers". The manual states in the first sentence of the procedure that pressure washing is not recommended then goes on to describe how to do it, seems contradictory.
 
knot4u said:
Checked chptr. 12-00-00 of the G-IV AMM and @A&Pdude is correct, a log entry would be required if you performed the procedure as described. Of course part of the procedure requires performing NLG and MLG lube procedures and some corrosion prevention reapplication which require CMP signoffs and updates and is based on actually washing the airplane, not just wiping it down with towels and spray bottles like the "detailers". The manual states in the first sentence of the procedure that pressure washing is not recommended then goes on to describe how to do it, seems contradictory.
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Thanks for that @knot4u, I actually have that GIV m/m procedure on file. You'll find in many aircraft maintenance manuals the aircraft cleaning procedures also calling for covering the pitot and static ports to c/w cleaning. This makes it 2 logbook entries required. One to c/w cleaning per m/m and two to c/w pitot & static port coverings per m/m. All of this is completely ignored.
 
A&Pdude said:
Thanks for that @knot4u, I actually have that GIV m/m procedure on file. You'll find in many aircraft maintenance manuals the aircraft cleaning procedures also calling for covering the pitot and static ports to c/w cleaning. This makes it 2 logbook entries required. One to c/w cleaning per m/m and two to c/w pitot & static port coverings per m/m. All of this is completely ignored.
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If you're making a log entry don't rely on the revision of the manual you keep "on file". This could easily get you violated and you are supposed to quote the rev in the entry. Did your business pressure wash aircraft or wipe them down? I've never seen someone pressure wash an airplane, albeit all my experience is corporate.
 
knot4u said:
If you're making a log entry don't rely on the revision of the manual you keep "on file". This could easily get you violated and you are supposed to quote the rev in the entry. Did your business pressure wash aircraft or wipe them down? I've never seen someone pressure wash an airplane, albeit all my experience is corporate.
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That m/m procedure is just a file not for use but to show as an example and for training purposes only.
We did both wet and dry washing. When doing a wet wash (by far the best method) we would cover the gear if the m/m called for it like the GIV for instance. Otherwise we didn't cover the gear.
Pressure washers were never used for cleaning, just rinsing off soap is all. Elbow grease does the cleaning. It's not like using a pressure washer to clean mud off a tractor.
 
Looked again at the current amm, nowhere does it mention covering the gear. The manual says lube the gear before and after "washing" the airplane, lotsa work for A/Ps. I'm thinking of jumping to the dark side (FAA), I could certainly make a name for myself busting people for not following the amm to the letter.
 
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