FAA Legal Interpretation on Ferry Flights?

[Ian_J]

To the FAA, yes!

They are receiving compensation (time building) to fly for the purpose of supporting a commercial operation. That's quite a dusky shade of grey. If you don't like the school, a call to your local FSDO in about a week could be entertaining.

We'll see... I think I'll just hand the manager the FAA interpretation and see what happens.

I have watched the same thing go on....sad isnt it.

Yup - I know they're just trying to save some money, but come on. When you choose to operate a school remotely from your mx base you have to expect to carry additional expenses.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

For those with questions, I'll tell you why i asked this question.

My flight school's maintenance facility is about 20 miles away from our home airport. My school repeatedly asked CFIs to fly the planes to and from Mx without compensation.

The CFIs now refuse to fly unless they're getting paid.

So, the school offers ferry flights to eager private pilots who are all too happy for the time. The school manager contends this practice is okay because it is not a commercial activity because the pilots are not getting paid. .

If you go beyond the regs to the policies behind them, you can see it in action even in this simple scenario.

I think all the rules about commercial pilots and commercial operations are based in two things: (1) protecting the unknowing public fro unqualified people and operations and (2) protecting the investment of those pilots and operators who have spent time time and money to go through the hoops.

So, here you have an operator who is trying to bypass paying its CFIs for performing an activity that either requires commercial privileges or (for those CFIs who only have 3d class medicals) is incidental to the position of CFI (hard to teach without a functioning airplane). Instead, the operator seeks to violate the 2nd policy.

The problem with turning it in to the FAA is that (if the FAA cares - it might not) the flight school operator has violated nothing (unless maybe if it's a Part 141 operation). It's the private pilots who are being put as risk. So, instead of handing it to management, you could pass it on the the students as instruction in the regulations

 

[Ian_J]

If you go beyond the regs to the policies behind them, you can see it in action even in this simple scenario.

I think all the rules about commercial pilots and commercial operations are based in two things: (1) protecting the unknowing public fro unqualified people and operations and (2) protecting the investment of those pilots and operators who have spent time time and money to go through the hoops.

So, here you have an operator who is trying to bypass paying its CFIs for performing an activity that either requires commercial privileges or (for those CFIs who only have 3d class medicals) is incidental to the position of CFI (hard to teach without a functioning airplane). Instead, the operator seeks to violate the 2nd policy.

The problem with turning it in to the FAA is that (if the FAA cares - it might not) the flight school operator has violated nothing (unless maybe if it's a Part 141 operation). It's the private pilots who are being put as risk. So, instead of handing it to management, you could pass it on the the students as instruction in the regulations

Yeah - I thought about the same sorts of things. You make a lot of sense.

 

[vheissu]

Funny you bring this up. All during "my friends" private training, he repeatedly made flights 25 miles away for MX, because he "needed" the hours anyway, and it "helped the school out". The school director even said the school would have trouble if they had to pay their CFI's to do the flights. "My friend" even picked up a plane across the country and flew it back to the school, and now i'm starting to think that wasnt such a good thing...

 

[Champcar]

Don't you love how flight schools are knowingly putting pilots certs at risk.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Don't you love how flight schools are knowingly putting pilots certs at risk.

You may be giving the flight school owners credit for more knowledge than they have. How did you react when you first came across the concept that flight hours were considered "compensation" by the FAA?

Personally, I always wonder how far the concept really goes. When FAA Legal first took a look at Angel Flight and thought it needed to be covered by Part 153, the "compensation" was the tax deduction; there was no talk about flight time.

And do you think that the FAA would =really= squawk if you flew your best friend for a job interview some distance away and logged the time? It's "clearly" a violation under the existing rules but...

The rule is there; the opinion is there; the question is how far the FAA would go in applying it.

If it sound like I'm talking about of both sides of my mouth, I am. This is one of the true gray areas in the regs with, IMO, the only real guidance being, "If it quacks like a duck..."

 

[Ian_J]

You may be giving the flight school owners credit for more knowledge than they have. How did you react when you first came across the concept that flight hours were considered "compensation" by the FAA?

Personally, I always wonder how far the concept really goes. When FAA Legal first took a look at Angel Flight and thought it needed to be covered by Part 153, the "compensation" was the tax deduction; there was no talk about flight time.

And do you think that the FAA would =really= squawk if you flew your best friend for a job interview some distance away and logged the time? It's "clearly" a violation under the existing rules but...

The rule is there; the opinion is there; the question is how far the FAA would go in applying it.

If it sound like I'm talking about of both sides of my mouth, I am. This is one of the true gray areas in the regs with, IMO, the only real guidance being, "If it quacks like a duck..."

My only beef with this is not that PPLs are flying the flights, its that Commercial pilots aren't flying for money.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

My only beef with this is not that PPLs are flying the flights, its that Commercial pilots aren't flying for money.

You know the thing that sucks, Ian, is that the flight school owner will always be able to find students willing to catch a quick free hour or two. Many of them simply don't care. It's free flight time!!

 

[slushie]

What I would like to see is the rules (and legal applications) changed to reflect the purpose of keeping the unknowing public safe.

If a flight school has one of THEIR STUDENTS who has a PPL ferry an airplane in VFR for mx, he is not doing anything more than he did on his solo xc, and the flight school is fully aware of his competency.

Granted, being a Commercial pilot, maybe we should just say that no commercial activity may be performed by anyone with less than a Commercial, and may not be performed without documented monetary compensation to said Commercial pilot.

And lobby for a minimum payment of $20/hr for such activity.